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00:00Previously on the hack, I'm friends with Claire Rue Castle-Brown, the journalist and sister-in-law of Gordon Brown. He's leaning in.
00:11Murdoch's ambition is limitless, but he's overstepped here.
00:14Part of a new operation, Operation Wheating. We're investigating allegations of phone hacking.
00:20A contact of mine in the force has been put on it. He's feeding me.
00:23This fell into your lap, okay?
00:25This could get you in serious trouble.
00:27Hello.
00:28Dave is Mike of the Sun.
00:31Give Panorama, Mike Sullivan, Nick Davis, anything about our cases and you'll be strung up for all to see.
00:37I was in the database. News of the world, April 14th, 2002.
00:41Millie Dowler.
00:42Jingle says there is a page on Dowler in Marques notebooks.
00:45The news of the world will not be forgiven for less.
00:48I was being drawn to stories again and again with the same theme.
00:51A deep-seated urge to hit back at anybody at all who takes power and abuses it.
00:57Our guest now joining us from the newsroom of The Guardian is Nick Davies, award-winning journalist who has brought phone hacking into the light.
01:08Hi.
01:09Now, Nick Davies, could you have predicted the furore that the Millie Dowler case seems to have caused?
01:18Uh, predicted, no. But I do think it speaks well for the British public, for the world public, that a furore has been provoked.
01:26You have Rupert Murdoch firmly on the ropes.
01:29I have to say I'm horrified that they closed the news of the world. Good journalists have lost their jobs.
01:35I believe this was a cynical move on Murdoch's part to help aid his capture of BSkyB.
01:41And what do you think it is about the Millie Dowler case that has had such an impact?
01:45Well, what we discovered was that during the period of her disappearance, news of the world were using a private investigator to listen to her voicemails.
01:54So that in itself is horrid, deeply personal stuff.
01:57Friends and family still thought she may have run away and were imploring her to come home.
02:02The voicemail filled up, which is why they deleted the messages.
02:06Now, friends and family who had previously heard the message voicemail full were surprised by this.
02:12And the presumption became that Millie was still alive.
02:15I guess we all want to know whether Rupert Murdoch will feature in front of your Leveson inquiry and what?
02:21Well, before Leveson, actually, Rupert Murdoch is due to speak at the House of Commons Media Select Committee.
02:27We want to get answers from him as to what he knew about phone hacking.
02:31Widespread practice at his newspaper, when he knew about it and why he didn't act.
02:37Nick Davies, thank you for joining us.
02:40Thank you for having me.
02:48Whether Rupert Bales and us, I don't know.
02:50Well, you could compel him.
02:52The thing you need to ask is can you truly compel Murdoch to do anything?
02:56Are we singing happy birthday?
02:58So who's getting to ask the first question?
03:00Well, I do, though Nick is intent on writing it for me.
03:05I think we should sing.
03:06No, happy birthday's a terrible song.
03:08Nick thinks happy birthday's fascistic.
03:10It is culturally fascistic.
03:12Everyone has to sing the same song on their bloody birthday.
03:14Where's the individuality?
03:15Well, we could sing, um...
03:17What's the one where we count the candles on the birthday cake?
03:20Have we the energy?
03:21Well, speech. At least we deserve a speech.
03:24Yes, yes. On your feet.
03:25Uh, no.
03:26But, okay, I would like to thank you all for coming.
03:29And I would like to remind you we have work to do.
03:33The select committee...
03:34The select committee is our chance, with Murdoch on the stand.
03:37And I won't let you down.
03:39No, no, no, Tom, I'm not saying...
03:40Maybe I should have let you retire.
03:42You were going to retire?
03:43Move to Belgium.
03:44Ah, chocolate.
03:45And then, with Levinson, making sure that we're fully prepared...
03:48Nick, Nick.
03:49Today, we celebrate.
03:51A prep session would have been much more preferable to any kind of birthday.
03:54Not only are the songs fascistic, but Nick thinks birthdays are narcissistic.
03:58He likes to work.
03:59True.
04:00How nice, then, that none of his friends came, just the people he works with.
04:03Now you're treading a very fine line between insulting me.
04:06Happy birthday to you.
04:09Happy birthday to you.
04:12Oh, God.
04:13Happy birthday, dear Nick.
04:16Happy birthday to you.
04:36Hi.
04:37Hi.
04:38So, good news and bad news.
04:43Good news, it's all cooking nicely for the select committee.
04:48The bad news, you are going to have to give evidence at Levinson.
04:52It needs your heft.
04:53It needs...
04:54Look, Alan's house may have been compromised.
04:55What?
04:56He hired someone to sweep his house for bugs.
04:59That person subcontracted it.
05:01The person they subcontracted it too.
05:03Worked for Rhys.
05:04He's an associate of Rhys.
05:07How do you know?
05:08I can't tell you.
05:09But I know Rhys has been bragging about how he knows the bug sweeper.
05:12You sure?
05:13Ask Alan about the socks he keeps under the piano.
05:16The socks?
05:18Oh, Christ.
05:19It's true.
05:21I like him.
05:23I'd get a better feel for the piano if I play barefoot.
05:26Alan, you do not have good hiring practices.
05:29It seems possible to claim.
05:31You hired someone to debug your house and instead they may have compromised.
05:35Are my children in danger?
05:37Dave doesn't think so.
05:39Don't know about you and me.
05:41We've got Murdoch on the stand.
05:44They know they're being hunted.
05:46Call it animal, most vicious animal of all.
05:49Fuck.
05:50Fuck.
05:57I thought the worst of it was over.
06:02The day after Cameron announced the Leveson inquiry into phone hacking,
06:05the CMS select committee issued an order summoning Rupert Murdoch and his son James
06:10to attend Parliament on the 19th of July to basically explain themselves.
06:17The significance of this moment was not lost on any of us.
06:20If we asked the right questions, we could ensnare them.
06:23Both of them.
06:24Father and son.
06:26Father and son.
06:42Okay, everyone settle now, please.
06:44Okay, everyone. Settle now, please.
06:52We are now in session. Mr. Watson will ask the first question.
06:57Mr. Murdoch Senior, Mr. Murdoch Junior, good afternoon.
07:00Thanks for coming in today.
07:02My first question is for Mr. Murdoch Senior.
07:06You have repeatedly stated that News Corp has zero tolerance to wrongdoing by employees.
07:13Is that right?
07:14Is that me?
07:16Yes.
07:18In October 2010, did you still believe it to be true when you made your Thatcher speech
07:24and you said, let me be clear, we will vigorously pursue the truth
07:29and we will not tolerate wrongdoing?
07:32Yes.
07:34So if you were not lying then, somebody lied to you?
07:38Who was it?
07:39I don't know.
07:40Well, that is what the police are investigating and we are helping them with.
07:44But you acknowledge that you were misled?
07:47Clearly.
07:49If I can take you to, um...
07:51He's doing...
07:52...2006, when Clive Goodman was arrested and subsequently convicted of intercepting voicemails.
08:01Were you made aware of that?
08:02I think so.
08:04I was certainly made aware of when they were convicted.
08:06And what did News International do subsequent to the arrest of Clive Goodman and Glenn Mulcair to get to the facts?
08:15We worked with the police on further investigation and eventually we appointed, but very quickly appointed,
08:22a very, um, leading firm of lawyers in the city to investigate it further.
08:28What did you personally do to investigate that after Mr. Goodman went to prison?
08:33You, you were obviously concerned about it.
08:36I spoke to Mr., um...
08:38Um, uh, Hinton, who told me about it.
08:44Okay.
08:46Um, in 2008, another two years,
08:51why did you not dismiss News of the World Chief Reporter Neville Thirlbeck following the Mosley case?
08:57I'd never heard of him.
08:58Um, so none of your UK staff drew your attention to this serious wrongdoing,
09:05even though the case received widespread media attention?
09:09I think my son can perhaps answer that in more detail.
09:12He was a lot closer to it.
09:13I will come to your son in a minute.
09:16Um, can I ask you, when did you first meet Mr. Alex Maranchak?
09:26Mr.
09:26Alex Maranchak.
09:30He worked for the company for 25 years.
09:32I don't remember meeting him.
09:34I might have shaken hands walking through the office,
09:35but I don't have any memory.
09:38Mr. Murdoch Senior,
09:41you seem to indicate that you had a rather, uh,
09:43hands-off approach, uh, to your company.
09:47Um, could you just give us an illustration
09:50of how often you would speak to the editors of your newspapers?
09:53Um, for example,
09:54how often you would speak to the editor of the song
09:56or to the editor of the News of the World?
09:59Um, very seldom.
10:04Sometimes I'd ring the editor of the News of the World on a Saturday night
10:07and say, have you got any news tonight?
10:08But it was just to keep in touch.
10:11Well, I'm intrigued, um,
10:13as to how these conversations might go.
10:16Well, I imagine that to the editor of the News of the World,
10:19it might go along the lines of, um, anything to report.
10:23And the editor of the News of the World says,
10:25no, no, it's been a standard week.
10:28We paid Gordon Taylor £600,000.
10:30He never said that last sentence.
10:33Well, I mean, surely in your weekly conversation
10:35with the editor of the News of the World,
10:37with something as big as that,
10:39paying someone a million pounds,
10:41paying someone £700,000,
10:43I mean, surely you'd have expected the editor
10:46to just drop it into the conversation
10:47at some point during your weekly chat.
10:50No, I'd say, what's doing?
10:53Sorry?
10:54I'd say, what's doing?
10:55And what sort of response would you expect?
11:00Well, he might say,
11:01we've got a great story exposing X or Y,
11:04or he would say, more likely, nothing special.
11:07He might refer to the fact that however many extra pages
11:09were dedicated to the football that week.
11:12But he wouldn't tell you about a million-pound payoff.
11:16I just want to say that I was brought up by a father
11:20who was not rich, but who was a great journalist.
11:22And he, just before he died,
11:25bought a small paper specifically in his will
11:28saying he was giving me the chance to do good.
11:32Now, I remember what he did
11:33and what he was most proud of
11:35and for which he was hated in this country
11:37by many people for many, many years,
11:39which was to expose the scandal at Gallipoli,
11:43which I remain very, very proud of.
11:45I think that all students of history will...
11:47Scandal!
11:48Um, the sitting is suspended.
11:59Fuck it.
12:01The defence told the court
12:02the father of one from Windsor
12:04had wanted to show his revulsion
12:06over the scandal at News International.
12:08He'd admitted assault...
12:09If I could get my hands on that phone!
12:11He's in custody.
12:12He thinks, what, that his amateur dramatics
12:14are more useful than what we were doing in that room?
12:17Good questions were asked.
12:18Yeah, they were, and they weren't answered.
12:20And that obfuscation is important.
12:23Well, it was.
12:25Oh, God, that awful senile act Murdoch was putting on.
12:30That needed writing about,
12:32but now every papal will carry one thing and one thing only.
12:35Wendy Murdoch fighting for her man.
12:37You're worrying too much, Nick.
12:39You don't understand news cycles.
12:41Yeah, but there's still Leveson.
12:42Yeah, nothing else but Leveson.
12:44There is no heir but Leveson F.
12:46Leveson doesn't produce.
12:47Then what?
12:48You're going to hide under a tea towel
12:49for the rest of your life?
12:51Well, Nick,
12:52a serious inquiry led by quite a clever bloke
12:55is happening because of your journalism.
12:58It could mean regulation,
13:00ethics,
13:01maybe even an appropriate relationship
13:03between press, politicians and police.
13:05When did you become the positive one?
13:08Oh, fuck off.
13:09Lord Leveson's report's given us a new press
13:11and a new Dave Cook.
13:13Fuck off.
13:14Twice.
13:29What's the latest with the select committee?
13:32We're going to get James Murdoch back in.
13:34On what grounds?
13:35Clarity on whether or not he was told
13:37about the Neville email.
13:41Why are there police officers in our newsroom?
13:44What?
13:50They want to talk to Amelia.
13:52Amelia?
13:53What about?
13:54They're citing the official secret site.
13:56They're saying they won't leave until they've spoken to you.
14:24No, no way.
14:25Not without a lawyer.
14:26Agreed.
14:28They don't like my biscuits
14:29and they don't like my small talk about Chopin.
14:33They're saying they need your notebooks.
14:35If you can't find your notebooks,
14:36they'll get a warrant and enter your flat.
14:39They're also saying that notebooks aren't in your flat,
14:41they could visit your mother.
14:43Tell them I'm not going to give up my source.
14:45All my notes.
14:45I'd rather go to prison.
14:48Right.
14:52Good.
14:53I'll contact some friends,
14:54give you some recommendations,
14:55or you can find a lawyer for yourself,
14:57a human rights specialist.
14:58This will get leaked.
15:00Right?
15:01I would expect so.
15:02But you might need to stay somewhere else tonight,
15:04with your friends or...
15:05Is this what happens?
15:06We were exposing them,
15:08not the other way around.
15:09It isn't what happens.
15:11But it does seem to be what's happening.
15:15I'm so sorry.
15:16Hi.
15:27Hi.
15:29How are you?
15:32I'm OK.
15:35I'm calling about Leveson.
15:37I'm going to apply to be a core participant.
15:40The group packed off.
15:41I don't know if you've...
15:42Yeah, yeah.
15:43Well, they saw the Channel 4 interview
15:44and they've been pretty insistent
15:45that I say something.
15:47Not that they're making me, um...
15:52They seem very good people.
15:54They don't really have anyone to talk to
15:56about the MEP from the inside,
15:57and I think that's why they want me.
15:59Well, they have you and they have me.
16:04You're doing it too?
16:05I registered yesterday.
16:07I was going to email.
16:08Their implications.
16:11Sure.
16:11For the kids.
16:12We'll have to speak to their school,
16:15their friends.
16:16We could be targets.
16:18Why is it worse me doing it than you?
16:22Because of Daniel Morgan.
16:24Because the case collapsed.
16:27They said you were feeding lines to a witness.
16:30You don't think they're going to use that against you
16:31if you give evidence...
16:32Now, now, listen, listen.
16:34Jackie,
16:34I just want this out there.
16:37Same as you do, OK?
16:47Hi, Nick.
16:48Sue Akers.
16:49I hope I'm not disturbing you.
16:51Deputy Assistant Commissioner.
16:52This is quite...
16:53Call me Sue, please.
16:54Quite the surprise, Sue.
16:55I was hoping you might have a moment
16:58to make me a cup of tea.
17:01Of course I do.
17:02Yeah, of course.
17:03Come in.
17:03Sorry.
17:04Through here.
17:05Thanks.
17:11You've gone to my house.
17:13Not a short distance.
17:14On a Saturday.
17:15So...
17:16Whatever this is can't be good.
17:18I mean, I have to assume...
17:20Can't be good at all.
17:22Maybe take a seat.
17:25Oh, God.
17:28Nick, I'm afraid that part of the story
17:30you published about Millie Dowler
17:32is inaccurate.
17:35Inaccurate how?
17:37It looks likely that the News of the World
17:39did not delete voice messages
17:41from Millie Dowler's phone.
17:43It's probable it was the phone company.
17:45That's not...
17:46I have two separate sources.
17:48The network she used
17:49automatically deleted messages
17:51after 72 hours.
17:53That's how we presume
17:55they were wiped.
17:56You're using words like
17:57presume, probable, likely.
17:59And we believe
18:00those deletions happened
18:01prior to Glenn Mulcair
18:03being instructed
18:03to get inside her phone.
18:06Before Mulcair.
18:09Nick,
18:10I came here in person
18:12to acknowledge
18:12all you've done.
18:14Without you,
18:15waiting is impossible.
18:17Without you...
18:18you can't know
18:19for certain
18:20who deleted what.
18:21I'm sorry.
18:23We'll be releasing a statement
18:24to correct the record.
18:27The article said
18:28messages were deleted
18:29by journalists
18:29in the first few days
18:31after Millie's disappearance.
18:32That's the only inaccuracy.
18:34It's a large one.
18:36I have a good source
18:37which tells me
18:38Surrey Police
18:39turned off
18:40the automatic deletion system
18:41on the fourth day
18:42and some voicemail
18:44appear to have been
18:44deleted after.
18:46Were they soon?
18:48No.
18:49Sure.
18:51They were inside the phone?
18:52Yes.
18:53They may have
18:54subsequently deleted messages?
18:56My source tells me
18:56they did.
18:57I believe my source.
18:58Then there is too much
18:59for them to lose in court.
19:02Right.
19:04Well, then we issue
19:05a retraction
19:05and an apology.
19:06We made a mistake.
19:08We may not have.
19:08We made a mistake, Nick.
19:10There we are.
19:11Ten lashes for you,
19:13ten lashes for me.
19:14Two Acres agrees
19:15with most of our story.
19:16They did hack the phone.
19:17Surrey Police did know
19:18about it, surely.
19:19I have two priorities.
19:22That they don't use this
19:24to try and obfuscate
19:25the crime they have committed.
19:26A dead girl's phone
19:27was hacked.
19:30And my other priority
19:31is you.
19:32What was that
19:33Carl Bernstein quote?
19:36All great reporting
19:37is the same thing.
19:38Best obtainable version
19:40of the truth.
19:41I'm going to be
19:42absolutely monstered.
19:45It serves them very well
19:46to try and destroy
19:47your reputation.
19:48I don't want to apologise.
19:50Then don't.
19:52The paper has to.
19:53You don't.
19:54Stand up.
19:56Put on some
19:57iron underwear
19:58and fight.
19:59The monstering was
20:06high energy.
20:07Fuck you.
20:08Doubt turned into
20:09a certainty
20:09that we had got it wrong.
20:11Fuck you.
20:12Richard Caseby,
20:13managing editor of the Sun,
20:14told the House of Lords Committee
20:15that Alan Rusperger
20:16had sexed up
20:17his investigation
20:18into phone hacking.
20:18Fuck you.
20:20Rod Liddle
20:20in the Sunday Times
20:21said baldly
20:22the Guardian
20:22had made it up.
20:23Shame on you.
20:24But beneath all
20:26beneath all that
20:29exaggeration
20:31and hostility
20:32was the fact
20:33that I had stated
20:35as a fact
20:35something which now
20:37appeared to be untrue.
20:38I had damaged myself
20:42and I had exposed
20:44the Guardian.
20:46So how are you
20:47enjoying it?
20:48Yeah, it's quite a thing.
20:50The outside your house?
20:51Whatever fuel they have
20:53they're readying
20:53to throw on the fire.
20:55So why are you
20:55so calm?
20:57Oh, I'm an optimist
20:58slash pessimist.
20:59I presume I'm capable
21:00of great things
21:01and yet assume
21:02the worst is about to happen.
21:04You always thought
21:04you'd be found out?
21:06Well, my mother
21:06said it would be.
21:07Maybe I should be
21:08an optimist
21:08slash pessimist.
21:09I wouldn't recommend it.
21:11Those are horrible
21:12things to your guts.
21:15You're ready
21:15to go to New York.
21:17The police
21:18haven't charged me.
21:19Free to go.
21:20You could just
21:21stay here.
21:22Yesterday's
21:23stale toast
21:24in no time.
21:26The Evening Standard
21:27tried to do a story
21:27about me sleeping
21:28with my source.
21:30A few weeks later
21:31they rang and said
21:31I was sleeping
21:32with an MP.
21:33Wrong Amelia
21:33and she's married to him.
21:35Yeah.
21:36I just
21:36I can't.
21:40I don't want
21:40to be the story.
21:43No.
21:45No, I'm not sure
21:46I do either.
21:48Luckily,
21:49they had a
21:49booking free for me
21:50on Newsnight tonight
21:51and Jeremy Paxman's
21:53a notoriously
21:54kind interviewer.
21:54You're going
21:55on Newsnight?
21:56Yeah, against
21:57whoever.
21:58News International
21:59think will do me
22:00most average.
22:02Steel underpants,
22:03filled with stale toast,
22:04be fine.
22:05If I don't come back,
22:12I mean,
22:14I want to say something.
22:18When this is all done
22:19and they tell the story
22:21of it,
22:22you know,
22:23when you look back
22:24or write about it,
22:25don't paint me
22:27as your protege.
22:28I mean,
22:29I've been at this
22:31a long time.
22:32I worked jingle
22:33across multiple cases
22:35for years.
22:37I mean,
22:37it was your story
22:38and Millie would have
22:40never happened
22:40without you.
22:41But it wouldn't have
22:42happened without me either.
22:43You don't need to say any of this.
22:45Don't let them whitewash
22:46all the other people out.
22:47Don't need to say any of this.
22:49I actually do.
22:52You have my word.
22:57Okay.
23:02Email me when you get there.
23:04If Paxman hasn't killed you first.
23:06Let him know my corpse.
23:07Good luck, Nick.
23:26Tonight,
23:27who knew what and when
23:28in the phone hacking scandal?
23:30Could James Murdoch
23:31really have been unaware?
23:33Why did The Guardian
23:34claim the news of the world
23:35deleted voice messages
23:36when they had no evidence?
23:38It was The Guardian newspaper's
23:39claim stated as fact
23:40that they'd been erased
23:41by the news of the world
23:42which triggered the shutdown
23:44of what was once
23:45the biggest selling paper
23:46in the English-speaking world.
23:48Nick Davis,
23:48let's cut to the chase.
23:50What you claimed to be a fact
23:51wasn't a fact, was it?
23:54The story we published in July
23:56was squarely based
23:58on the evidence available,
23:59correct in saying
24:00that her voicemail
24:01was deleted.
24:02And it remains the case
24:03that News International
24:05are not denying
24:05that News of the World
24:06journalists may have been
24:07responsible for those deletions.
24:09Well, let's look
24:10at the front page here.
24:11Yeah.
24:12The News of the World
24:13hacked Millie Dowler's phone
24:14during police hunt
24:15and the paper deleted
24:17missing schoolgirls'
24:18voicemails giving
24:19family false hope.
24:20Yeah.
24:21And you say in the copy
24:22the messages were deleted
24:23by journalists
24:24in the first few days
24:25after Millie's disappearance.
24:27Everybody
24:27who was involved
24:29in that story
24:29accepted it was true.
24:31It's a very interesting thing
24:32that when that story
24:33when that story was done
24:34No, no, no.
24:35Well, you're not allowing
24:36me to answer.
24:36Well, no, I'm not
24:37because you're not answering.
24:38Well, you're not asking
24:38the right questions.
24:39Oh, I'm sorry.
24:42Everybody
24:43involved in that story
24:45accepted that
24:46that story was true
24:48and continued
24:48to accept
24:50until four months
24:51Right.
24:51Four months later
24:52New evidence
24:53which was not available
24:54to everybody's surprise
24:55No, you did not
24:56report it like that.
24:57Showed that one element
24:58of that story
24:59is now in doubt.
25:00It has not been proved
25:01to be untrue.
25:02So you accept
25:02it wasn't true.
25:03Jules Stenson
25:04was a features editor
25:04of the News of the World.
25:05What do you say?
25:06Well, the key point
25:07to this as well
25:07is that this wasn't
25:08any old story.
25:10This was a story
25:10that was the most
25:11important story
25:12in the Guardian's history.
25:14It was vital
25:14that every single element
25:16of it should be right
25:17and Nick Davis
25:18repeated that allegation
25:1934 times.
25:20Let's get things
25:21in proportion here.
25:22Your newspaper
25:23had hacked
25:24a murdered girl's telephone.
25:26What we did
25:26was indefensible
25:27not just to Millie
25:28but to all the victims
25:29of hacking.
25:29I'm not here
25:30to justify that
25:31in any way.
25:32What I am here
25:32to do though
25:33is to attack
25:34the shoddy journalism
25:35of the Guardian
25:35and the shoddy journalism
25:37of Nick.
25:37This is a classic example
25:39of the way
25:39tabloid newspapers work.
25:41You're in a heap of trouble
25:42because for years
25:43you personally
25:44have taken Murdoch's money
25:44and ruined people's lives
25:46and invaded people's privacy
25:47and engaged in criminal activity.
25:49You've hired
25:49private investigators
25:50in the past
25:51haven't you?
25:51Private investigators
25:52who have broken the law
25:53haven't you Jules?
25:53I'm not here
25:54to justify.
25:54Haven't you Jules?
25:55You accuse me
25:56of shoddy journalism
25:57when your name
25:58is all over the records
25:59of Steve Whittemore
26:00private investigator
26:01who was convicted
26:02of using illegal means
26:03your name's there.
26:04Information about
26:05Jeremy Feakston
26:06about Anne Robinson
26:07about Anna Friwell.
26:08There are public interest factors.
26:10You know what Jules?
26:10You should just stop.
26:11Take a leaf out
26:12of Rupert Murdoch's book
26:13and get a bit humble
26:13or else just go quiet.
26:15People don't believe you anymore.
26:16Right.
26:17We're not going to be bullied
26:17by people like you anymore.
26:19We've had enough of you.
26:20Two years after this
26:22Jules Stenson
26:23pled guilty
26:24to conspiracy
26:24to hack phones
26:25but
26:26well I wish I knew that
26:29at this moment.
26:30Do I want you
26:50Oh my
26:52Do I
26:54Detective Chief Superintendent
27:16Dave Cook
27:16Oh my
27:46Hello?
27:48Hi, Jackie. It's Dave.
27:50David. What's this number?
27:53Listen, Jackie, I...
27:55I need you to pick up my kit.
27:58Where are you calling from?
28:01It's, um...
28:03It's actually a police station number, Jackie. I've been arrested.
28:07What? On what charge?
28:11It's misconduct. Data protection.
28:15They raided the house.
28:22What, did they find anything?
28:24Some old files.
28:26What files?
28:28Why did you have files at home?
28:30I don't know.
28:33What the fuck are they doing?
28:36I don't know, Jackie.
28:40I don't know.
28:42What do we do? How can we help them?
28:44I'm not sure we can help until we know what they have.
28:47We have to do something.
28:49Nick, we both know he was passing information to both of us.
28:52And they've arrested Amelia's sauce.
28:55Sit tight. We'll find an answer.
28:57Okay. Bye.
28:59I don't know what you think you have here.
29:04Would you like a cup of tea, sir?
29:06No. I would like to leave.
29:08I'm supposed to be given evidence tomorrow.
29:11I'm a participant in Leveson.
29:16Better not suppose you already know that.
29:18This conversation is being recorded, sir.
29:21Yes.
29:23I understand that you've refused legal representation.
29:26Yes.
29:27And I do need to check that you do fully understand your rights.
29:30I'm 40 years in the police force, son.
29:33Yes, I understand my rights.
29:35Good.
29:36All right, let's start from the beginning then, shall we?
29:40Tell me about your relationship with the journalist Mike Sullivan.
29:45No comment.
29:46So you deny passing information to journalists?
29:48And, as you know, police officers working for Operation Elvedon...
29:51Operation Elvedon is about bribery.
29:53I have never accepted money from a journalist in my life.
29:56It is an operation looking into the corrupt relations between police and the press.
30:03News International sent us emails.
30:05News International sent you emails?
30:06They were sent from their server.
30:07Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?
30:08Do you deny you were in regular contact with the journalist Mike Sullivan?
30:17Mike Sullivan and I worked together.
30:21It was John Yates who introduced us.
30:23He had access to my investigation in return for writing helpful articles in the newspaper.
30:29I have done nothing that a million police officers before me haven't done.
30:33It is standard police practice.
30:36She did nothing wrong.
30:38Nothing.
30:42Forty years in the police service and you didn't know you broke the law.
30:49Shame on you.
30:53Oh my God.
31:22They're trying to get us old.
31:32They're not waiting for any mistake.
31:34Then let's try not to make any mistakes.
31:36Come inside.
31:37I mean so.
31:49Lindsay found a spare duvet from somewhere.
31:53I don't need to stay.
31:54You should.
31:55I'd like you to.
31:58I'm having a sleepover with the editor of the Guardian.
32:01Not editor.
32:03Friend.
32:05This may not be entirely comfortable.
32:09I should be helping.
32:11Yes, you should.
32:14A journalist running away to America.
32:16Two police officers under arrest.
32:19You're so paranoid.
32:20You're having this house periodically debugged and it's...
32:23It's all your fault?
32:24Yeah.
32:28You remember when we first met?
32:31I felt like a child who forgot his pencil.
32:34You were so thrusting and, well, I wasn't.
32:39No, you were ambitious.
32:41Hugely.
32:42Compensating for who knows what.
32:46And I thought, well, if everyone at the Guardian's like him, I'm done for.
32:51Thankfully they weren't.
32:53And thankfully, as it turns out, I had something to offer you.
32:58As you had something to offer me.
33:03Nick.
33:06Don't mistake the fact you were first through the door with the fact that everyone else went through the same door willingly.
33:13The sacrifices weren't for you, they were for your cause.
33:18You're part of a team, Nick.
33:20The funny thing is, you always have been.
33:23I think he's going to get away with it.
33:29No, Doc, I think he's going to get away with it.
33:31Perhaps.
33:34Perhaps that's what abusers do.
33:37Get away with things.
33:38Or perhaps not.
33:39Not really.
33:40Maybe.
33:41Maybe.
33:42Deep down inside them, there's just damage.
33:53Yes, but sometimes.
33:55Yes, but sometimes the damage they cause, sometimes.
34:00I mean, you're not trying to excuse her, him.
34:09No, Nick.
34:13I'm not trying to excuse your mother or him.
34:18I'm saying,
34:21all we can do is fight the best we can
34:25and hope we prove to be a valiant opponent.
34:31And personally speaking, I'm so proud
34:36to have been a part of this great, valiant act.
34:41Whatever happens,
34:47know that.
34:55I'll cut.
35:09You won't cut.
35:25No, Nick.
35:26What?
35:29Oh, Nick.
35:31What?
35:32What?
35:33What?
35:34What?
35:37What?
35:39You won't?
35:40Oh, Nick.
35:42Oh, Nick.
35:44Oh, Nick.
35:47I scared you.
35:49Oh, Nick.
35:51Oh, Nick.
35:52Don't worry, you're before me.
36:18I'm just insanely horrifically early.
36:22It's Jackie, isn't it?
36:25Yes.
36:26I read her statement.
36:29Strong stuff.
36:30Harrowing.
36:31Punchy.
36:32Nick, by the way.
36:33I know.
36:35Coming from you, that's, um, thank you.
36:44May I...
36:45I mean, I hope it's okay to ask.
36:48How's David?
36:49Oh, it's been a week since we spoke, but he's back in his house at least.
36:57He won't take my calls.
36:58He will when he's ready.
37:00It won't be you.
37:01It'll be him.
37:02It's generally him.
37:04He helped, by the way.
37:08I'm not sure whether you're aware, but he helped all of us.
37:12He was key.
37:13We wouldn't be here without his help.
37:22Sorry.
37:23Leave you to it.
37:24Let your prep, run your lines.
37:27Oh, God.
37:28I'm usually good with details, but for some reason, today, my mind keeps going blank.
37:40I didn't sleep much.
37:47I didn't sleep much last night.
37:49Not a wink.
37:50Then I don't sleep.
37:51I'm not someone who sleeps.
37:52You've always been like that.
37:53Since I was a boy, yeah.
37:56Dave did tell you I wasn't a simple guy to understand, right?
38:02I've had days recently where I can't remember my own name.
38:07I've been in rooms full of people and forgotten why I'm even there.
38:10I suffer.
38:11I have done for years of panic attacks.
38:15Every time I sat down to write this statement, I'd, um...
38:20But this morning, I woke up, and I felt clear, clearer than I have done in years.
38:25That's good.
38:26Yes.
38:27Just remember, in the storm of all of this, in all their miracle plough,
38:36news of the world, they decided that in the middle of this inquiry to launch the sun on Sunday.
38:49You're right.
38:51They're bold.
38:53Hmm.
38:58Hmm.
39:05That thing you were doing with the ball.
39:07I don't mind.
39:09It helps to calm you.
39:10Oh God, it'll drive you insane.
39:11Oh, I've been tested by bigger things.
39:13Please.
39:14Do what you need to do.
39:16Oh.
39:17Yeah.
39:18I'll be honest, I'm scared of this inquiry.
39:21I'm scared because I think you'll take the wrong recommendations.
39:28And because you'll destroy something which is precious without rebuilding something better.
39:34I don't want destroyed the notion of the unofficial source.
39:41Sue Akers has arrested 37, 38 people in the four inquiries she's been running.
39:47There have been a couple of arrests of police officers in cases where I know quite a lot about the circumstances.
39:54What's happened there is those officers have been told they will be charged with the common law offence of misconduct in a public office.
40:04Despite, to the best of my knowledge, there have been no allegation of any kind of bribe or inducement, what those officers have been told is you will be charged and you can expect to get a prison term of up to 18 years.
40:22Because you've spoken to a reporter without permission.
40:39Now, these two cases are live.
40:43We don't know how they'll turn out.
40:44May well be that the Crown Prosecution Service will say, hang on a moment, this doesn't apply.
40:49But I think it's worrying, and this is in the wake of the phone hacking.
40:54I worry that it might be a completely unjustifiable and unnecessary backlash to the allegation of collusion between News International and The Met.
41:06And the ultimate effect here may be to prevent unauthorized contact between journalists and police.
41:14When, as a matter of fact, without this unauthorized contact, the Metropolitan Police would have been allowed to carry on misleading press, public and parliament about this whole scandal.
41:23I'm also scared that this inquiry might misstep in a different direction.
41:29Might soften itself as its attack from outside sources.
41:35I have been under attack in one form or another ever since I first attempted to reveal the practice of hacking.
41:40And I represent here today a team of people, all of whom have been under similar attacks.
41:48They've had to face extraordinary things to be part of this fight.
41:53They've done so because what you're doing here today is precious.
42:00News, I think the best definition of it, news is what someone somewhere doesn't want you to know.
42:09The most difficult, skillful, interesting, important stuff that reporters do is about finding human sources and motivating them to help reveal that news.
42:23And I can tell you someone at the front line of that.
42:26News is also often what someone is reluctant to tell.
42:32So it's hard to motivate a human source to reveal their truth.
42:40I'd say, look, if I talk to you and they realize I've done this, then I'll lose my job or my career.
42:46Or I'll be beaten up. I'll be arrested or embarrassed or ashamed.
42:51I will hurt people who love me. It's a very sensitive moment.
42:54You have to make those people safe.
42:57You have to make those people safe.
43:01You have to make those people realize their truth is worth the risk.
43:08What these hackers did was about cutting out that human connection.
43:17These so-called journalists didn't find the truth.
43:19They didn't persuade people to come with them.
43:21They just stole.
43:23They took.
43:27And humanity was lost in that moment.
43:31Not only in the privacy that was invaded, but also in the stories told from it.
43:36Our papers became dish rags of distorted content.
43:42A set of rogue journalists working for a rogue corporation undermine the very tenets of journalism.
43:54The very tenets of truth-telling.
44:01If this inquiry succeeds, we may be able to rebuild our newspapers.
44:05We may be able to make them what they should be.
44:13Fail, and News International will have trapped us all in their shadow.
44:18And I'm scared that we will never get out.
44:23We will never get out.
44:24We will never get out.
44:31They will never get out.
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