00:00As we heard in that report, the G20 summit is coming up this weekend in South Africa,
00:04and the topic of climate change is likely to come up.
00:08That's because this G20 summit comes as the COP30 climate summit is wrapping up in Brazil.
00:13Now, Thursday's proceedings ended a little bit early after a massive fire broke out at the venue in the Amazonian city of Belem.
00:20This Friday is the final official day of negotiations, though the annual UN conference does usually spill into overtime.
00:26This year's sticking point is whether the final deal will include a roadmap phasing out fossil fuels.
00:32Despite Brazil's president championing the issue, the latest draft proposal from the host country makes no mention of it.
00:38For that reason, more than 30 countries have reportedly co-signed a letter opposing the draft.
00:43Let's take a listen to the UN Secretary General speaking at the summit on Thursday.
00:49No delegation will leave Belem with everything it wants.
00:53But every delegation has a duty to reach a balanced deal.
01:00First, on protecting people.
01:04For Meleum's adaptation is not an abstract goal.
01:08It is the difference between rebuilding and being swept away.
01:13Between replanting and starving.
01:16Between staying on ancestral lands or losing it forever.
01:21For more on the COP30, we can speak to Alia Kaji, the Global Campaign Project Manager at ClimateNGO350Africa.org.
01:30She joins us via video from Johannesburg.
01:33Good morning and thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us.
01:37Good morning, Alison.
01:38Thanks so much for having me.
01:40Could you first just tell us about your organization, 350 Africa, and what it is that you do?
01:45Yes, well, 350 Africa is part of a global organization, 350.org.
01:53And we are all about fighting the climate crisis.
01:57And we do this by organizing and mobilizing with regular people all over the world to really hold leaders accountable to climate justice and climate action that we need to see in order to protect people.
02:11Like the UNF General Secretary just said.
02:15And I know that you've been following the COP30 quite closely.
02:18The final text should be adopted by this weekend.
02:21What needs to be in it in order for you to consider it a success?
02:26Oh, absolutely.
02:27It's a great question as we get into the final day of COP30.
02:31We know that this COP is 10 years after the Paris Agreement.
02:35And so we really are hoping for an ambitious package.
02:39For this package to be ambitious in order to protect people, we really want to see a clear commitment to transitioning away from fossil fuels.
02:49But for this to happen, we also need to see credible climate finance.
02:54And we also expect to see clear commitments to adaptation.
02:57What you mentioned about the transition away from fossil fuels and the issue of coming up with this roadmap, that's been one of the main points of contention.
03:07Can you explain sort of why it's so contentious?
03:10Why are countries divided over it?
03:11Absolutely.
03:14I think the problem and the challenge, as well as the opportunity for transitioning away from fossil fuels, is a complicated matter.
03:22But honestly, if we are to protect people, we need the means and the resources to be able to transition away.
03:30And so that's why we come back to an ambitious COP package being about finance, adaptation, as well as the transition away.
03:37And if we look at the mechanisms and tools that we have in our planet, is it possible to transition away?
03:45And what makes it impossible to transition away?
03:49Here in South Africa, we are eagerly awaiting Lula to come and join G20 to really push the fossil fuel phase out plan and gain more traction.
03:59I see that we do have countries opposing the transition away.
04:03We need to look at who benefits from fossil fuels and who actually has huge amounts of harm because of fossil fuels.
04:14So we see countries that profit from fossil fuels really denouncing the package.
04:18But we also need to be able to receive the finances and receive the support and receive the mechanisms and means to transition away
04:27and actually put in place real alternatives for people like renewable energy, solar power.
04:33And we need to make sure that these solutions are accessible for people.
04:36So we actually have and we've seen over 80 countries, over 80 signatories supporting this plan.
04:43And really coming together to make this plan a reality is what we all hope to see.
04:47You say we need to identify the countries that are benefiting from burning fossil fuels and in theory blocking any kind of successful deals.
04:56Can you talk about which countries those are?
04:58Are you allowed to name some names?
05:01I'm not sure if I can name names, but luckily I'm not at COP, so maybe we are able to.
05:06But when we look at the mechanism of COP as well, I think it's important to recognize that it is built on a consensus.
05:14So it's not a voting mechanism where the majority vote wins, but if one country really says no, then it really reduces the outcome to the lowest common denominator.
05:27And so where any country refuses a package or negotiates away any kind of ambition or progress, we see the outcomes of the negotiations themselves becoming diluted.
05:40So we see oil-producing countries, we see petro-states really negotiating for the continued use of fossil fuels so that there are national benefits.
05:51But we also see some countries really negotiating for a balanced outcome.
05:57And we heard that from Guterres as well in the clip that was played.
06:01Where there are transition plans that are proposed, there could be unbalanced outcomes as well.
06:08Sitting in South Africa today, we are crippled by major debt.
06:13And not everybody knows, but when there are climate finance packages that put developing countries in more debt than they had before in the name of transitioning away from fossil fuels, it becomes a little bit more difficult to transition away.
06:27And so when we come out to what we want to see coming out of COP, we absolutely need to see a phase out from fossil fuels.
06:35We need to see no more fossil fuel expansion.
06:38We also need to see credible climate finance.
06:41And we need to see resources to protect countries that have already faced the harmful impacts of the climate crisis.
06:48Can you talk a little bit more about what credible climate finance would look like and who would be paying for it?
06:54Well, actually, in the Paris Agreement itself, it's already been agreed that developed countries that have profited from resources and fossil fuels, largely from the global south or the global majority, have a duty and an obligation to support the transition away from fossil fuels.
07:14So we are looking at regions like the EU, we are looking at those who have already committed to climate financing.
07:25But what is a hot topic here in South Africa and amongst developing countries as well is looking at the mechanisms through which finance flows between the global south and the global north.
07:37And I say between the global north and global south because we are not seeing the resources coming to the global south in the amounts that it should or in the mechanisms that it should.
07:48When we say a credible climate finance package, we're looking at grant-based finance.
07:52We're looking at concessional loans.
07:54We are not looking at loans that increase our debt crisis that undermines national abilities to see to domestic needs.
08:05If I can even give an example for that, I saw a clip earlier about COVID and what governments could do better.
08:12It's not commonly known, but during the COVID pandemic, for example, South Africa did receive loans from the World Bank to support vaccines.
08:22But because this increased our debt so much, we saw a decrease in public health spending where hospitals received less budget.
08:31And so we really need to be careful on what are we pushing, what are we calling for,
08:36and ensuring that the solutions that we see do not undermine national abilities to see to their domestic needs in eventualities.
08:45And when you look at the negotiations taking place at the COP so far, do you have confidence that that's what's happening?
08:50Or do you feel like, you know, poorer countries are once again going to be sort of slighted coming out of this conference?
08:58It's hard to tell right now.
09:00I think we've seen many, many changes and we've seen a fast pace of texts dropping during COP itself.
09:08We have seen a huge effort from the COP presidency to bring nations together to negotiate in the best collective interest of all.
09:18But as we said, the COP is also just a platform to bring nations together and negotiate what countries bring to the table.
09:26So we are looking at a COP that is in a difficult situation considering the geopolitics we have at play.
09:33We've seen nations like the U.S. pulling out.
09:37But we've also seen a shifting world order where countries like South Africa, like Brazil, we've seen Brazil hosting the G20 last year, South Africa hosting the G20 this year.
09:48And we are seeing incredibly relevant and important elements being put onto the agenda.
09:54So we do want to see continued emphasis on solidarity, on equality, on sustainability.
10:02And so it is up to the world leaders and developing countries as well to continue putting this on the table.
10:08And we eagerly await to see the responses.
10:11Yeah, we will be following it closely.
10:12Alia Kaji, thank you again so much for joining us today.
10:15That's Alia Kaji, the Global Campaign Project Manager at ClimateNGO350Africa.org.
10:21She was speaking to us there from Johannesburg.
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