The Moral Meaning of BITCOIN! Twitter/X Space

Stefan Molyneux

In this X Space from 7 October 2025, philosopher Stefan Molyneux engages with callers about Bitcoin, starting with updates on its recent Core 30 release. They discuss concerns over stagnant prices despite rising interest and the risks of “rehypothecation” in traditional finance. Stefan emphasizes the need to break free from entrenched fiat beliefs to grasp Bitcoin’s true value. The episode wraps up with a philosophical reflection on life’s meaning, urging listeners to consider the significance of experiences even in mortality's face.  SUBSCRIBE TO ME ON X! https://x.com/StefanMolyneux  Follow me on Youtube! https://www.youtube.com/@freedomain1  GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND THE FULL AUDIOBOOK! https://peacefulparenting.com/  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  Subscribers get 12 HOURS on the "Truth About the French Revolution," multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material - as well as AIs for Real-Time Relationships, Bitcoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-In Shows!  You also receive private livestreams, HUNDREDS of exclusive premium shows, early release podcasts, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon! https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2025

Transcript

00:00:00So that's a quick sprint through what's going on.

00:00:03I'm happy to take your questions and comments.

00:00:05We have somebody who's been waiting.

00:00:08Oh, so patiently.

00:00:09Private ear of the something.

00:00:12Private ear.

00:00:14That's like phone sex, right?

00:00:15Okay, but don't do that.

00:00:17Okay, maybe.

00:00:18If you wanted to unmute, if you have questions, comments,

00:00:20and if anybody else has questions, comments,

00:00:22you know, we can open it up to other topics if you like,

00:00:25but I'm just going to check and see.

00:00:27I would assume that since I've started this show,

00:00:30things have gone up because that's just the kind of power I don't have.

00:00:34No, they've stayed flat.

00:00:36All right, private ear, what's on your mind?

00:00:38How are you doing, Stefan?

00:00:39Well, thanks. How are you doing?

00:00:41Great.

00:00:41I just wanted to know if you had any information on the 430 versus MOTS debate

00:00:47that's been circulating.

00:00:49I'm kind of out of the loop there,

00:00:52so I was wondering if you could shed some light on that.

00:00:55Oh, do you mean like the,

00:00:57because I think I just did a show on this a couple of weeks ago

00:00:59on the larger return size.

00:01:02Is that right?

00:01:04Well, it's like,

00:01:05I think it's like the validation of the entire blockchain,

00:01:09if I remember correctly.

00:01:10The 430 update, I think, is happening on Friday.

00:01:13And I think the 430 issue is that it's going to allow for image generation

00:01:19within the blockchain,

00:01:20and then it saves them a blockchain.

00:01:22I mean, the issue is that it can, well, be used maliciously, potentially.

00:01:27So that's just a concern.

00:01:30Yeah, I did a whole show on that,

00:01:33and you can check it out.

00:01:34It's 6096.

00:01:36So FDR Podcasts, just search for 6096.

00:01:40Fantastic. Thank you, sir.

00:01:41Yeah, you can just check that out.

00:01:43We did that on the 14th of September.

00:01:44However, I don't think, not that I've been following it obsessively,

00:01:48but I don't think that there has been a huge amount of changes.

00:01:53I have faith that the architecture as a whole will work out.

00:01:56If that turns out to be bad, people would just stop upgrading.

00:02:00But yeah, I certainly do recognize the danger

00:02:02of being able to insert images into the blockchain.

00:02:06I'm not a big fan.

00:02:07But then there are technical issues that they're trying to solve.

00:02:10Is this the best solution?

00:02:12I'm a big fan.

00:02:12If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

00:02:14And Bitcoin being the fastest growing asset in all of human history,

00:02:18even bigger than my own ass,

00:02:20that is really an impressive thing.

00:02:22And I don't know why people want to keep improving stuff

00:02:24that is working fantastically.

00:02:26You know, there's this old Scott Adams thing.

00:02:30Dilbert, right?

00:02:30But Dilbert's like,

00:02:31I think I'll just mess around with my computer settings

00:02:33until I break something,

00:02:34and then I feel like I'll be satisfied

00:02:36and I'll be productive by fixing it.

00:02:38Well, Bitcoin has survived

00:02:41a lot of many, many changes

00:02:43throughout its, over almost 20 years now.

00:02:49It's quite incredible.

00:02:50No, not 20.

00:02:51It's almost, it's getting there.

00:02:53It's getting closer to 20 than it is to 10.

00:02:55Yeah, yeah.

00:02:55That's for sure.

00:02:562009, 2008.

00:02:57Yeah, it's getting up there.

00:02:58So we're getting up there.

00:03:00So it survived a lot of pushback

00:03:03from other hard forts, I guess you could say, right?

00:03:07Yeah, and if this really does blow,

00:03:09then people will just roll back, right?

00:03:10Like it's just a hard fork, right?

00:03:12I mean, I guess that's always the safety.

00:03:13It's a hard fork.

00:03:14You could just, yeah,

00:03:15you could just use the older clients

00:03:18and things like that.

00:03:19So there's a bunch of different things.

00:03:22Eventually, it does end up being democratic,

00:03:24although it's long and painful,

00:03:27but you still can't force people to upgrade.

00:03:29Yes, and it can be quite messy,

00:03:31but sometimes that's what's needed, unfortunately.

00:03:34Oh, we'll see, I guess, right?

00:03:35Yeah, I mean, it's whatever the free market decides.

00:03:42Like this is not something that is imposed by governments,

00:03:44so it has a chance of not sucking eggs.

00:03:47A chance, right?

00:03:48Most of what people,

00:03:49this is the funny thing about the world, right?

00:03:51Most of what people do fails.

00:03:55And this is true no matter what.

00:03:57So if you look at, what was it?

00:04:0152 plays from Shakespeare,

00:04:03of which maybe six to eight

00:04:05are produced on a regular basis

00:04:07that are sort of the famous,

00:04:08the Macbeths and the Taming of the Shrews

00:04:10and Hamlets and Merchant of Venice and so on.

00:04:13Although I think that one's a little less popular

00:04:15these days for others.

00:04:15Oh, yeah.

00:04:16I work in technical development,

00:04:18so I'm totally aware of that.

00:04:20For every idea,

00:04:21have and fail.

00:04:23Well, yeah.

00:04:23And so if you look at Shakespeare,

00:04:25like the most brilliant writer,

00:04:27I think the world will ever see.

00:04:28Like, honestly, I don't think that you'll ever...

00:04:31I'm certainly aiming at it,

00:04:33but I, you know,

00:04:34let's just give him number one for all time.

00:04:37And, you know,

00:04:38three quarters of his plays

00:04:40are not considered particularly great.

00:04:43I mean, the sonnets, you know,

00:04:44there's maybe 10 or 20.

00:04:46If you look at Dickens,

00:04:47wrote like 37 novels,

00:04:49of which, you know,

00:04:50eight or so are considered

00:04:52sort of venerable classics,

00:04:53The Great Expectations

00:04:54and David Copperfield

00:04:56and The Christmas Carol and so on.

00:04:57I mean, even within programming itself.

00:05:00I mean, programming itself.

00:05:02I'm not too familiar,

00:05:04but I know a little bit about it.

00:05:06And, well,

00:05:07if you wanted to push for branches

00:05:09and some branches just don't work out,

00:05:11then you can always just roll back

00:05:12and start all over.

00:05:14Oh, yeah.

00:05:15I mean,

00:05:16so even if you look at,

00:05:18you know,

00:05:18sort of number one bands

00:05:20like Queen

00:05:22that lasted from the late 60s

00:05:25to the early 90s,

00:05:28you know,

00:05:28the Queen's greatest hits,

00:05:30you know,

00:05:30of the hundreds of songs

00:05:32that they produced,

00:05:33you know,

00:05:33people in general know

00:05:34maybe 10,

00:05:35maybe 12.

00:05:37And so,

00:05:37you know,

00:05:38they have a success rate

00:05:39of, you know,

00:05:40hits of 10%.

00:05:40What was the last time

00:05:42that Paul McCartney

00:05:43came up with a great song

00:05:44and so on?

00:05:44So even among,

00:05:46you know,

00:05:46stone geniuses,

00:05:47the failure rate

00:05:48vastly exceeds

00:05:49the success rate.

00:05:51So,

00:05:52and this is why

00:05:53when you ring things

00:05:54with government force

00:05:55like currency creation

00:05:56and interest rate manipulation

00:05:59and so on,

00:06:00the bad ideas

00:06:01just never get weeded out.

00:06:02So at least with Bitcoin

00:06:03it's not imposed,

00:06:05dare I say,

00:06:06by fiat, right?

00:06:06It's not imposed by force

00:06:08and therefore

00:06:09it has a chance

00:06:10of not sucking.

00:06:12And that's just the reality.

00:06:13Yes, it absolutely does.

00:06:14And now we have

00:06:16the banksters

00:06:16which has its own

00:06:18pros and cons, right?

00:06:19But like,

00:06:20they do carry

00:06:22a lot of weight

00:06:23behind them.

00:06:24And if they're invested

00:06:25in it like we are,

00:06:27they want it to succeed.

00:06:29So they're going to try

00:06:29and do whatever they can

00:06:31to ensure that

00:06:32a blockchain stays healthy.

00:06:35Yes, yes.

00:06:36I think that's true.

00:06:37And, you know,

00:06:37the only thing worse

00:06:38than not having

00:06:39the bankers involved

00:06:39in your enterprise

00:06:41is having,

00:06:43sorry,

00:06:43the only thing worse

00:06:44than having

00:06:44the bankers involved

00:06:45in your enterprise

00:06:46is having them not

00:06:46involved in your enterprise.

00:06:47And there was simply

00:06:48no way for Bitcoin

00:06:50to become as stable

00:06:52and widely accepted

00:06:53as it is

00:06:54without the bankers

00:06:55getting involved.

00:06:56It's kind of a deal

00:06:57with the devil,

00:06:58but it doesn't really matter

00:07:00because we just,

00:07:01they're just going

00:07:02to be there.

00:07:02Otherwise,

00:07:03it's going to be,

00:07:04otherwise it's going

00:07:04to take too many highs

00:07:06and lows to be taken

00:07:07seriously.

00:07:08I mean,

00:07:08the Bitcoin

00:07:09has stabilized

00:07:10enormously

00:07:10since they came in,

00:07:11which is not

00:07:12that tough to predict.

00:07:13So we'll see.

00:07:14We'll see with this upgrade.

00:07:16If it takes,

00:07:17great.

00:07:17For sure.

00:07:18If it doesn't,

00:07:19then there'll be a rollback

00:07:21and it'll be like

00:07:22new Coke, right?

00:07:23Like this is back,

00:07:24what was it,

00:07:24the 80s or the 90s?

00:07:25Coke finally changed

00:07:26its recipe

00:07:27and they poured

00:07:28a zillion dollars

00:07:29into trying to get people

00:07:30to try new Coke

00:07:30and everyone tried it

00:07:31and like spat it out

00:07:32because it tasted like a glass.

00:07:33Badly,

00:07:34I was never around for that.

00:07:35So I was unable to taste

00:07:37what tasted like before.

00:07:38So you're lucky,

00:07:39I guess.

00:07:40Yeah.

00:07:40Well,

00:07:40now they brought

00:07:41the original recipe back

00:07:42because the new Coke

00:07:43was like a combination

00:07:43of saccharin,

00:07:44bull semen,

00:07:45and antifreeze.

00:07:46It was just a bad,

00:07:47bad combo all around.

00:07:49All right.

00:07:49Is there anything else

00:07:49you wanted to mention?

00:07:50I think we're all good here.

00:07:52You can bring someone else up.

00:07:53Thanks for talking.

00:07:54Thanks, man.

00:07:54Appreciate it.

00:07:55All right.

00:07:57Renegade.

00:07:58Renegade investor.

00:07:59I'm very good

00:08:02at pronouncing these things.

00:08:03Yes, sir.

00:08:05What's on your mind?

00:08:06Oh, hi.

00:08:07Hi, Steph.

00:08:07Thanks for doing the talk tonight.

00:08:09I just wanted to get your opinion

00:08:11on a theory

00:08:12that I've been thinking about

00:08:13for a long time.

00:08:14And I've been in Bitcoin

00:08:16for a long time,

00:08:17almost 12 years now.

00:08:18And I've never seen...

00:08:20Okay, hang on.

00:08:20Hang on.

00:08:21So that's 12 earth years.

00:08:23But Bitcoin years

00:08:24are like dark years.

00:08:25So how long does it feel?

00:08:27Oh, my God.

00:08:29Longer than I want to admit.

00:08:31Oh, yeah.

00:08:32Bitcoin years are like,

00:08:33high school dating years,

00:08:34they're like dark years.

00:08:35Like anybody who dates

00:08:36for six months in high school

00:08:38is like the equivalent

00:08:38of five years as an adult.

00:08:40So, yeah,

00:08:41it feels a lot longer.

00:08:43It's like the meme

00:08:44of the gray-haired guy

00:08:45and he says,

00:08:46Bitcoin's not stressful.

00:08:48I'm 25,

00:08:48but I feel great.

00:08:50It's like that.

00:08:51Ain't that the truth.

00:08:52All right.

00:08:52So, sorry.

00:08:53Yeah.

00:08:54But it's just something

00:08:55I've been thinking about

00:08:55for a while.

00:08:56And I've been in Bitcoin

00:08:57for a long time,

00:08:58but it just feels recently

00:08:59like Bitcoin

00:09:01is like a wild dog

00:09:02that feels like

00:09:04it's been neutered

00:09:04ever since TradFi

00:09:06got involved.

00:09:07And I just want to say,

00:09:09well, before I say this,

00:09:10like I'm a true believer

00:09:11in Bitcoin.

00:09:11Like I'm all in.

00:09:12I have been for a long time.

00:09:14I've created content,

00:09:16everything like that.

00:09:17Like I'm absolutely all in.

00:09:18Believe it's going to lead

00:09:19to like a libertarian,

00:09:20sell money,

00:09:21free market future.

00:09:22Like the best shining light

00:09:25in the world right now.

00:09:26But it almost feels like

00:09:28at the moment,

00:09:29the market action of Bitcoin

00:09:30is completely underwhelming.

00:09:33And it just...

00:09:34I'm sorry,

00:09:34the what reaction?

00:09:36Just like the market,

00:09:39just the price action

00:09:40of Bitcoin

00:09:40seems completely underwhelming

00:09:41because it's not even...

00:09:44sort of outperforming

00:09:45the NASDAQ

00:09:46and the S&P 500

00:09:47in terms of percentage gain.

00:09:49And their markets

00:09:50that are respectively

00:09:5120 trillion,

00:09:5250 trillion dollars

00:09:54and even gold,

00:09:55which is 22 trillion,

00:09:56is absolutely trouncing

00:09:57the sort of recent returns

00:09:59on Bitcoin.

00:10:00And people are flirting

00:10:02the idea of why this might be

00:10:03because the inflows

00:10:04have been absolutely huge.

00:10:06Like over the summer,

00:10:07I think the supply-demand

00:10:09sort of demand-supply ratios

00:10:12were almost up to like 10 to 1

00:10:13when you look at all the ETF inflows

00:10:15and all the Bitcoin treasury companies.

00:10:17So there was no sort of

00:10:18lack of demand for Bitcoin.

00:10:20It's coming in from all angles.

00:10:21Yet the upside seems so limited

00:10:24compared to the relative strength

00:10:27of the inflows.

00:10:28And people are starting to float

00:10:29the idea of whether

00:10:30there's any way that TradFi

00:10:32is sort of maybe potentially

00:10:35creating paper Bitcoin

00:10:36or rehypothecating

00:10:37the underlying collateral

00:10:39to kind of dampen the...

00:10:41Okay, sorry.

00:10:42I'm afraid you're going to have

00:10:44to step me through this theory

00:10:47because it doesn't leap

00:10:48full-formed into my brain

00:10:50as something I can comprehend.

00:10:52So step me through it.

00:10:53So actually,

00:10:55it might be worth linking this

00:10:56back to precious metals.

00:10:57So for a long time

00:10:58in the precious metal space,

00:11:00a lot of people believe

00:11:02that there's a lot of

00:11:04rehypofication

00:11:05or re-collateralization

00:11:07of contracts on the COMEX

00:11:08or the commodity exchange

00:11:11where they trade

00:11:12all the sort of gold

00:11:13and silver contracts

00:11:14and they're not completely

00:11:15backed by the physical metal.

00:11:18And so for a long time,

00:11:19sort of price action

00:11:20in gold and silver

00:11:21was very dampened,

00:11:23especially in silver

00:11:24where, you know,

00:11:25there seemed to be

00:11:26systematic sort of hits

00:11:27on the price daily

00:11:28and people believed

00:11:29that they were just

00:11:30creating contracts

00:11:31which then

00:11:31artificially increased

00:11:33the supply

00:11:34to dampen the price.

00:11:36and people are now

00:11:37starting to wonder

00:11:38because...

00:11:39You mean leveraged stuff?

00:11:41Like they're trading stuff

00:11:41that's highly leveraged?

00:11:43I'm sorry if I'm just

00:11:43dumbing it down too much.

00:11:45No, just literally

00:11:46creating contracts

00:11:47that aren't backed

00:11:48by the underlying asset.

00:11:50Okay, got it.

00:11:51It's reflective

00:11:52of the underlying asset

00:11:54but it's not a

00:11:55one-to-one ratio.

00:11:56Is that right?

00:11:56Yeah.

00:11:57So they're creating contracts

00:11:59that are not physically

00:12:00backed by the underlying asset

00:12:01but the market perceives it

00:12:03as you're having

00:12:04supply in the market.

00:12:05If that makes sense.

00:12:06Yeah, got it.

00:12:07And so I'm beginning

00:12:08to wonder whether

00:12:09now the TradFi

00:12:10has got involved

00:12:11in Bitcoin

00:12:12and the price action

00:12:13seems really sort of

00:12:15like it's not on fire

00:12:17like you would imagine

00:12:18it would be

00:12:18for an asset

00:12:19that is, you know,

00:12:20like because like

00:12:21Bitcoin's market cap

00:12:22is to what?

00:12:23Just over $2 trillion.

00:12:25Yeah.

00:12:26And it's not even

00:12:27outperforming

00:12:28sort of other risk

00:12:29on assets

00:12:30that are $20 and $50 trillion.

00:12:32And so you'd think...

00:12:33You mean like gold and...

00:12:34Yeah, gold, yes,

00:12:35and in the Nasdaq,

00:12:37like all of these.

00:12:38Yep.

00:12:39So I just think to myself,

00:12:41man, you'd expect

00:12:42for a risk on asset

00:12:43like Bitcoin

00:12:44to be a fraction

00:12:44of a slice

00:12:45to not be able

00:12:45to outperform

00:12:46such big indices.

00:12:49Like,

00:12:50yeah,

00:12:50it just doesn't seem right.

00:12:51And I'm just wondering

00:12:52whether the same dynamic

00:12:54is playing out

00:12:55where they're perhaps

00:12:56TradFi is somehow

00:12:58creating

00:12:59some form of paper Bitcoin

00:13:02that isn't backed

00:13:03by the underlying collateral.

00:13:05Right.

00:13:05To dampen...

00:13:06to increase supply

00:13:07and dampen the price.

00:13:08But I just...

00:13:10Yeah.

00:13:10I mean,

00:13:11I sort of...

00:13:13There's this old cartoon

00:13:14about some medieval battle

00:13:16and it's like,

00:13:18longbows?

00:13:19Can they do that?

00:13:20You know,

00:13:21like,

00:13:21is that allowed?

00:13:22I don't know

00:13:23if they're allowed to.

00:13:24And again,

00:13:24I'm not any kind of expert

00:13:25on financial regulations,

00:13:27but I,

00:13:28you know,

00:13:28I don't know

00:13:29that the SEC

00:13:30or other agencies

00:13:32some,

00:13:33you know,

00:13:33they can be kind of strict.

00:13:34I mean,

00:13:35just go ask

00:13:35the library guys,

00:13:36right?

00:13:36The LRBY guys,

00:13:37right?

00:13:38They can be kind of strict

00:13:38and so on

00:13:40about what they consider

00:13:41to be an asset

00:13:42and what they allow

00:13:42in terms of collateral

00:13:43and so on.

00:13:44So I don't know

00:13:46if they can.

00:13:46Are you saying

00:13:47that they can do it

00:13:48and they're not telling people

00:13:50or do you think

00:13:51it's something

00:13:51that might be happening

00:13:52under the table

00:13:52or what's your theory?

00:13:54I guess my theory is that

00:13:55I guess if you have

00:13:57a lot of Bitcoin

00:13:58on exchange,

00:13:59they could,

00:14:00you know,

00:14:00you could physically

00:14:01see your Bitcoin

00:14:02on the exchange

00:14:03but maybe they don't

00:14:03have to fall about

00:14:04backing the Bitcoin

00:14:07in the background.

00:14:09Ah,

00:14:10okay.

00:14:10Something like that.

00:14:11So they've got something

00:14:12that is supposed

00:14:13to theoretically

00:14:14represent Bitcoin

00:14:15but they don't

00:14:17have it all.

00:14:19Right,

00:14:19yeah,

00:14:19that makes sense.

00:14:20I mean,

00:14:20so I hate to sort of say

00:14:22just reduce it

00:14:22to leveraged

00:14:23but that they,

00:14:25I mean,

00:14:25they have to have

00:14:25some Bitcoin

00:14:26but if they have

00:14:26100 Bitcoin

00:14:27they're trading

00:14:28like they have

00:14:28200 or maybe even more.

00:14:30Yeah,

00:14:31yeah,

00:14:31exactly.

00:14:33Okay,

00:14:33got it,

00:14:34got it.

00:14:34Yeah,

00:14:34because I mean,

00:14:35I remember in 0708

00:14:36some financial institutions

00:14:39were leveraged

00:14:4030 to 1

00:14:40which means a 3% drop

00:14:42can almost wipe you out.

00:14:43It was insane

00:14:44what they were leveraged at

00:14:45and the fact that

00:14:46they were allowed

00:14:46to do it well.

00:14:47I actually had a presentation

00:14:48about things

00:14:50that government regulators

00:14:51get wrong

00:14:52on a regular basis

00:14:53like the number of people

00:14:56who warned about Enron,

00:14:57the number of people

00:14:58who warned about Theranos,

00:15:02the number of people

00:15:03who warned about,

00:15:04I can't remember

00:15:05if it's the guy's game now,

00:15:06but the guy who stole

00:15:07from Kevin Bacon

00:15:08and like the guy

00:15:10who went to jail

00:15:11and died in prison,

00:15:12I can't remember his name

00:15:12right now,

00:15:13but a financier

00:15:14who was running

00:15:15a Ponzi scheme

00:15:15and just tons of warnings.

00:15:17Bernie Madoff,

00:15:17thank you.

00:15:18Yeah,

00:15:18I shouldn't remember that.

00:15:19It's like a simulation thing

00:15:21like Madoff,

00:15:22Madoff with all the money,

00:15:23right?

00:15:23So,

00:15:24so,

00:15:25I don't want to

00:15:27give you my rant

00:15:30until I have

00:15:30as much information

00:15:31as you want to pass over.

00:15:33So,

00:15:33is there more

00:15:33that you want to say

00:15:34before I start

00:15:35bellowing and swearing?

00:15:37With regards to my theory?

00:15:40Yeah.

00:15:41Yeah,

00:15:41it's,

00:15:41I guess for a long time

00:15:43I didn't think

00:15:44it would be possible

00:15:44because in Bitcoin

00:15:46you kind of have

00:15:47unspent transaction outputs

00:15:48which kind of

00:15:49collate

00:15:50every single spending

00:15:51so you can't

00:15:52sort of have

00:15:53artificial spending

00:15:53but it doesn't get around

00:15:55the fact that you have

00:15:56centralized intermediaries

00:15:57that could

00:15:58artificially increase

00:15:59supply in the short term

00:16:00by not

00:16:01having the full amount

00:16:02and maybe

00:16:03crediting accounts

00:16:04with Bitcoin

00:16:04that doesn't exist

00:16:05and

00:16:06yeah,

00:16:07I'm just

00:16:07just wondering

00:16:08whether that is

00:16:09feasible

00:16:10and

00:16:11how long it would take

00:16:12for it to

00:16:12kind of get rooted out

00:16:13because

00:16:14I guess one way

00:16:15would be for everyone

00:16:16to pull their money

00:16:16off the exchange

00:16:17to see if it was happening

00:16:18but

00:16:18yeah,

00:16:20that would take a massive

00:16:21concerted

00:16:23sort of mission

00:16:24to do.

00:16:25Right,

00:16:25right,

00:16:25right.

00:16:26Yeah.

00:16:27Well,

00:16:28of course

00:16:28it

00:16:29absolutely could be the case

00:16:31that

00:16:31and I would be shocked

00:16:33if nothing shady

00:16:33was going on

00:16:34having been around

00:16:35the finance world

00:16:36quite a bit

00:16:38over the course

00:16:39of my career

00:16:40both as a programmer

00:16:41and also as a guy

00:16:42trying to raise investment

00:16:43and having

00:16:44investment meetings

00:16:45and so on.

00:16:46I would be shocked

00:16:47if there was nothing shady

00:16:48going on

00:16:48but I don't think

00:16:50it's enough.

00:16:51I think it's

00:16:52another answer

00:16:52and again,

00:16:53it's just my

00:16:54obviously opinion

00:16:54formal

00:16:56permission to swear

00:16:57request submitted.

00:16:59Yeah,

00:16:59go for it.

00:17:00Are you sure?

00:17:01All right.

00:17:01Yeah.

00:17:02All right,

00:17:02because I can get

00:17:03quite colorful.

00:17:04So,

00:17:04yes,

00:17:05tender ears,

00:17:06please get your

00:17:07smelling salts ready.

00:17:09So,

00:17:09how long have you been

00:17:10in Bitcoin?

00:17:13Since 2013.

00:17:15Right.

00:17:16So a late comer.

00:17:17I'm just kidding.

00:17:18I'm just kidding.

00:17:18So,

00:17:19so,

00:17:20here's the problem

00:17:21and it's an obvious problem

00:17:23I don't claim any

00:17:24intelligence for pointing

00:17:25this out.

00:17:26Hopefully some

00:17:26intelligent stuff

00:17:27will come soon.

00:17:28But the problem

00:17:29is that

00:17:30when you get

00:17:31incredibly familiar

00:17:31with something

00:17:32it's really hard

00:17:34to remember

00:17:34how fucking

00:17:35stupid people

00:17:36are about it.

00:17:37So,

00:17:38you know the ins

00:17:38and outs of Bitcoin.

00:17:40You've been immersed

00:17:41in the environment

00:17:42for 13 years

00:17:44so,

00:17:46you know,

00:17:46your knowledge

00:17:47of Bitcoin

00:17:48and your investment

00:17:49in Bitcoin

00:17:49is so old

00:17:50that its balls

00:17:51are dropping

00:17:51and it's starting

00:17:52to smell at the armpits.

00:17:54So,

00:17:55it's second nature

00:17:56to you.

00:17:56You understand it

00:17:57deeply

00:17:57which means

00:17:58it's hard

00:17:59to remember

00:17:59how retarded

00:18:01people are

00:18:02about Bitcoin.

00:18:04I mean,

00:18:04okay,

00:18:05how often

00:18:05do you go to people

00:18:07let's say

00:18:08they're in their

00:18:09mid to late 60s

00:18:11and try to explain

00:18:12Bitcoin to them?

00:18:15I talk to people

00:18:16all the time

00:18:17from every age group

00:18:18and

00:18:18I sometimes,

00:18:20I know what

00:18:21you're trying to say,

00:18:22like I've

00:18:22normalised it

00:18:23so much

00:18:24that I forget

00:18:24what people

00:18:25don't know.

00:18:26Okay,

00:18:27so,

00:18:27but are you

00:18:28talking to people

00:18:28who are generally

00:18:29interested in Bitcoin

00:18:29already or

00:18:30are you just

00:18:31like grabbing

00:18:32people by the

00:18:32lapels on the

00:18:33bus or something?

00:18:34Well,

00:18:34not the bus

00:18:34because you're

00:18:35into Bitcoin

00:18:35so you're

00:18:35living in

00:18:36a cardboard box.

00:18:37A whole range.

00:18:38A whole range.

00:18:39Like,

00:18:40people that know

00:18:40nothing,

00:18:41people that are

00:18:41into it,

00:18:42people that are

00:18:42experts,

00:18:43like,

00:18:43yeah.

00:18:44Okay,

00:18:44so what is

00:18:45your experience

00:18:46of trying to

00:18:47explain Bitcoin

00:18:47to people who

00:18:50don't even know

00:18:50what fiat currency is?

00:18:52I mean,

00:18:52people don't even

00:18:53know what the

00:18:53problem Bitcoin

00:18:54is trying to

00:18:55solve is.

00:18:57Yeah,

00:18:58it can be a real

00:18:58challenge.

00:18:59I have a cancer

00:18:59cure.

00:19:00Oh,

00:19:00what's cancer?

00:19:02Oh,

00:19:02God.

00:19:03Right.

00:19:04I mean,

00:19:04do you talk to

00:19:05turbo normies?

00:19:07And I'm not saying

00:19:07you should,

00:19:08I'm just like,

00:19:08have you had that

00:19:09experience of trying

00:19:10to explain Bitcoin

00:19:11to turbo normies?

00:19:12Oh,

00:19:12yeah,

00:19:13same anytime.

00:19:14How does it go?

00:19:16Um,

00:19:16I just have to go

00:19:18really slowly.

00:19:19I just use,

00:19:20I explain it as like,

00:19:21the internet of

00:19:22money.

00:19:23Um,

00:19:23that's the,

00:19:24I find that's the

00:19:25easiest way to do

00:19:25it.

00:19:26You say it's not

00:19:26information,

00:19:27it's money rather

00:19:28than information.

00:19:29Um,

00:19:30but yeah,

00:19:30you have to go

00:19:31through a whole

00:19:32series of different

00:19:33analogies,

00:19:34try and explain it.

00:19:36And it is to some

00:19:37degree incomplete,

00:19:38right?

00:19:39Yeah.

00:19:40Because it's,

00:19:41I mean,

00:19:41obviously it uses

00:19:43internet protocols,

00:19:45but it's not really

00:19:46the internet of money.

00:19:47And I mean,

00:19:48it's a good analogy.

00:19:49I get that it's on

00:19:50the internet and it

00:19:50has value.

00:19:52But,

00:19:52um,

00:19:53the internet doesn't

00:19:53have to sync and the

00:19:54internet is run by

00:19:55centralized computers.

00:19:56And yeah,

00:19:57so it doesn't have to

00:19:59all update.

00:20:00It's not when I update

00:20:00my,

00:20:01my blog,

00:20:01it has to be updated

00:20:02everywhere else on the

00:20:03planet immediately.

00:20:04So I get that and I'm

00:20:05not,

00:20:06I'm not trying to nag it

00:20:07your,

00:20:08but it's,

00:20:08it's somewhat incomplete.

00:20:10And since for people,

00:20:13a lot of their money is

00:20:14digital already,

00:20:15they're not even sure what

00:20:16problem Bitcoin is trying

00:20:17to solve.

00:20:18So,

00:20:19uh,

00:20:20what is your success rate

00:20:21of getting people to

00:20:22genuinely,

00:20:22genuinely understand why

00:20:24Bitcoin matters and what

00:20:26it's for starting from

00:20:28scratch?

00:20:30I mean,

00:20:30it's pretty good.

00:20:31I've converted a lot of

00:20:32individuals in my time to

00:20:34actually make their first

00:20:35investment.

00:20:35I think in terms of

00:20:37percentage,

00:20:38it's hard.

00:20:39No,

00:20:39no,

00:20:39that's,

00:20:39that's investment.

00:20:40Fine.

00:20:41Bernie Madoff did that too.

00:20:42Not that I'm putting you

00:20:43in the same category,

00:20:43but no,

00:20:45understanding.

00:20:46Yeah.

00:20:46As opposed to,

00:20:47yeah,

00:20:47it's going up.

00:20:48I'll buy some.

00:20:49Oh man,

00:20:49it's probably,

00:20:50yeah,

00:20:50much smaller.

00:20:52So,

00:20:52uh,

00:20:53over the 13 years of

00:20:54conversations,

00:20:55just ballpark,

00:20:56what percentage of people

00:20:57that you talk to who

00:20:58don't really know much

00:21:00about Bitcoin come out

00:21:01with a deep understanding

00:21:02of it?

00:21:03God,

00:21:03it must be

00:21:04under one percent.

00:21:07Right.

00:21:08Right.

00:21:08Yeah.

00:21:08Right.

00:21:09Because Bitcoin is an IQ

00:21:10test.

00:21:10Yeah.

00:21:11And it's not just an IQ

00:21:13test because there are

00:21:14smart people who still

00:21:14don't get it,

00:21:15but it's an IQ and moral

00:21:18test.

00:21:18Now the overlap of IQ and

00:21:19morality is really tough

00:21:21because smart people know

00:21:23just how much money can be

00:21:25made from being amoral.

00:21:27And so trying to get people

00:21:29to understand that Bitcoin

00:21:30is not a value technology

00:21:34it is a moral tool

00:21:37of humankind's salvation.

00:21:39It is the only

00:21:40fucking chance

00:21:41we have

00:21:42getting people to

00:21:43understand that

00:21:44is tough

00:21:46because to get people

00:21:47to understand why

00:21:48Bitcoin matters,

00:21:49they have to understand

00:21:50just how

00:21:51fucking evil

00:21:53the system is

00:21:54that we have right now.

00:21:56How predatory,

00:21:58how enslaving

00:21:59of the young

00:22:00it is,

00:22:01how the funding

00:22:02of everything

00:22:03that wrecks us

00:22:04is gleefully

00:22:05enabled by people

00:22:07who can type

00:22:08numeric shit

00:22:09into their own

00:22:09bank accounts

00:22:10and use it to

00:22:10dissolve the West

00:22:12that is.

00:22:13The fact that the

00:22:14people who get

00:22:15the newly minted

00:22:16typed in

00:22:17money shit

00:22:18can spend it

00:22:19at full value

00:22:19while those

00:22:20on fixed incomes

00:22:22and the poor,

00:22:22the old,

00:22:23the aged,

00:22:24spend it

00:22:25at a fraction

00:22:26of its former value,

00:22:27it's the most

00:22:27regressive tax

00:22:28known to man.

00:22:29The fact that

00:22:30it funds war,

00:22:31the fact

00:22:32that it has been

00:22:33used to swell

00:22:34the population

00:22:34of say Africa

00:22:35five or six fold

00:22:37in an unsustainable

00:22:38system of what

00:22:39happens then,

00:22:40what happens

00:22:40when the money

00:22:41runs out.

00:22:43So in order

00:22:43to get people

00:22:44to genuinely

00:22:44understand what

00:22:45Bitcoin is,

00:22:46you've got to

00:22:47rip them out

00:22:48the matrix

00:22:48that every dollar

00:22:51they touch

00:22:51is a fucking

00:22:53bloody Aztec

00:22:54manacle

00:22:55around the next

00:22:56generation

00:22:57and it is

00:22:58the funding

00:22:58of war,

00:22:59it is the

00:22:59disassembly

00:23:00of human

00:23:00beings,

00:23:01and it is

00:23:02the predation

00:23:02upon the

00:23:03productive,

00:23:04the kind

00:23:04of which

00:23:05even the

00:23:06most fevered

00:23:07dream

00:23:07capitalist

00:23:09in a Marxist

00:23:10nightmare

00:23:10could achieve.

00:23:12So getting

00:23:13people to

00:23:13understand

00:23:14that Bitcoin

00:23:16is moral,

00:23:18say the

00:23:18internet of

00:23:19money,

00:23:19well the

00:23:19internet is

00:23:20used for

00:23:20a lot of

00:23:21shitty stuff,

00:23:21right?

00:23:22It's used to

00:23:22push propaganda,

00:23:24pornography,

00:23:25just all

00:23:26all kinds

00:23:26of falsehoods

00:23:28and defamation

00:23:28and I

00:23:29mean for

00:23:30god's sakes

00:23:30Wikipedia is

00:23:31on the

00:23:31internet,

00:23:32right?

00:23:32So getting

00:23:34people to

00:23:34understand what

00:23:36Bitcoin is

00:23:38for requires

00:23:39getting them to

00:23:40understand what

00:23:42Bitcoin is

00:23:43against and

00:23:45that's really

00:23:45tough for

00:23:46people and

00:23:47the older

00:23:47they are and

00:23:48the more

00:23:48they've been

00:23:49invested in

00:23:49the system.

00:23:50See people

00:23:50don't evaluate

00:23:52ideas,

00:23:53they evaluate

00:23:54the effect

00:23:55of those

00:23:55ideas on

00:23:56their social

00:23:57circle.

00:23:58That's a

00:23:58whole different

00:23:59planet,

00:24:00right?

00:24:00This is why

00:24:00people veer

00:24:01away from

00:24:02conspiracy

00:24:02theories,

00:24:03even though,

00:24:04as you know,

00:24:04the gap

00:24:05between a

00:24:06conspiracy

00:24:06theory and

00:24:07an accepted

00:24:08fact is now

00:24:08down to the

00:24:09months.

00:24:09It used to

00:24:10be the

00:24:10centuries,

00:24:11then the

00:24:11decades,

00:24:11then the

00:24:12years,

00:24:12now it's

00:24:12down to

00:24:12the months.

00:24:14Look how

00:24:14many FBI

00:24:15agents were

00:24:15January 6th.

00:24:16Anyway,

00:24:16so people

00:24:18don't evaluate,

00:24:20oh,

00:24:20Bitcoin,

00:24:21that's

00:24:21interesting.

00:24:22Ah,

00:24:22internet of

00:24:22money,

00:24:23oh,

00:24:23that's

00:24:23interesting.

00:24:24What they

00:24:24are going

00:24:26to evaluate

00:24:26is,

00:24:27oh,

00:24:27my God,

00:24:28hang on,

00:24:28are you

00:24:28saying that

00:24:29the financial

00:24:30system that

00:24:30we have

00:24:30right now

00:24:31is hopelessly

00:24:31corrupt and

00:24:32evil?

00:24:34I've got

00:24:35Thanksgiving to

00:24:36go to,

00:24:36man,

00:24:37I don't

00:24:37want to

00:24:37know that

00:24:38because what

00:24:39am I going

00:24:40to say to

00:24:40people?

00:24:41You know,

00:24:42there's that

00:24:42old saying,

00:24:43depression or

00:24:44dissociation is

00:24:45looking at the

00:24:45world through a

00:24:46glass darkly.

00:24:47Well,

00:24:47that's what

00:24:48happened.

00:24:48This wall

00:24:50comes down.

00:24:52It's not quite

00:24:53the right analogy

00:24:53because it's

00:24:54actually a view

00:24:55that's opening

00:24:55up,

00:24:56but it's a

00:24:56wall,

00:24:57like a

00:24:58garage door

00:24:59comes down

00:25:00between you

00:25:00and everyone

00:25:01else when you

00:25:02understand the

00:25:02system that

00:25:03is.

00:25:04It's like

00:25:04universally

00:25:05preferable

00:25:06behavior.

00:25:07People resist it

00:25:08because it

00:25:09echoes their

00:25:09conscience and

00:25:10also because if

00:25:11they understand

00:25:12it,

00:25:13then it's

00:25:14like knowing

00:25:16that the world

00:25:17is a sphere

00:25:17when you live

00:25:18in an entire

00:25:19society that

00:25:20ostracizes anyone

00:25:22who doesn't

00:25:22accept that it's

00:25:23flat or doesn't

00:25:23think that it's

00:25:24flat.

00:25:25It's like,

00:25:25okay,

00:25:26so,

00:25:26oh,

00:25:26fantastic.

00:25:27So now I

00:25:27accept that the

00:25:28world is a

00:25:28sphere and I

00:25:30got to shut up

00:25:30about it.

00:25:31Great.

00:25:32I can't change

00:25:33it.

00:25:33I can't change

00:25:34people's minds.

00:25:34Everyone's just

00:25:35going to ostracize

00:25:36me.

00:25:36Thanks for

00:25:37nothing,

00:25:37fella.

00:25:38Thanks for

00:25:39putting that

00:25:39glass wall

00:25:40down so that

00:25:41everyone seems

00:25:42muffled and

00:25:43weird and

00:25:43rippled.

00:25:44Because I know

00:25:45the truth and

00:25:47once you know

00:25:47the truth,

00:25:48you realize

00:25:48people's

00:25:49addiction to

00:25:50lies.

00:25:51So it's

00:25:52tough.

00:25:52It's a tough

00:25:53sell.

00:25:54Now,

00:25:54the other

00:25:55thing too,

00:25:55of course,

00:25:56is that people

00:25:56often absolutely

00:25:58love appearing

00:26:00smarter than

00:26:02they are.

00:26:02And certainly

00:26:03they love

00:26:03appearing more

00:26:04knowledgeable than

00:26:06they are.

00:26:07So what

00:26:09happens is

00:26:09people hear,

00:26:12and I'm

00:26:12looking at you,

00:26:13Dave Ramsey,

00:26:13right?

00:26:14So people hear

00:26:15or Portnoy,

00:26:16was it?

00:26:16Anyway,

00:26:16so people hear

00:26:17that,

00:26:18oh,

00:26:19Bitcoin is

00:26:20a scam.

00:26:22Bitcoin,

00:26:23it's not

00:26:24backed by

00:26:24anything.

00:26:24Bitcoin has

00:26:25no intrinsic

00:26:25value.

00:26:26They just hear

00:26:27this stuff.

00:26:28They don't

00:26:28really understand

00:26:29it.

00:26:30They don't

00:26:30look for

00:26:31counter-arguments.

00:26:32I mean,

00:26:32the first time

00:26:32I hear an

00:26:33argument,

00:26:33I immediately

00:26:34go look for

00:26:34the counter-argument,

00:26:35whether it's

00:26:35an argument I

00:26:36like or I

00:26:36don't like.

00:26:37I will go

00:26:37look for the

00:26:37counter-argument.

00:26:39And in fact,

00:26:40I'm more likely

00:26:40to look for a

00:26:41counter-argument

00:26:41to something that

00:26:42I like,

00:26:43because I know

00:26:43what the

00:26:44confirmation bias

00:26:44problem is all

00:26:45about.

00:26:45So people

00:26:47hear this

00:26:48vague shit.

00:26:51Oh,

00:26:51it's just

00:26:51ones and

00:26:52zeros,

00:26:52man.

00:26:53It's not

00:26:53backed by

00:26:54anything.

00:26:55Oh,

00:26:55what happens

00:26:56if the

00:26:56electrical grid

00:26:57goes down?

00:26:58What happens

00:26:58if there's an

00:26:59EMP attack?

00:27:00Huh?

00:27:01Huh?

00:27:02Right?

00:27:02You can't hold

00:27:04it in your

00:27:04hand,

00:27:04man.

00:27:05It's just a

00:27:05bunch of

00:27:05digits and

00:27:07bits and

00:27:07burps.

00:27:08They don't

00:27:09understand

00:27:09anything,

00:27:10but they've

00:27:10been handed

00:27:11their idiot

00:27:12cards,

00:27:13their idiot

00:27:14card talking

00:27:14points,

00:27:15right?

00:27:15That's what

00:27:16they do.

00:27:16Oh,

00:27:16it's not

00:27:18even like

00:27:19digital gold.

00:27:19At least

00:27:20gold is

00:27:20real.

00:27:21You can't

00:27:22use Bitcoin

00:27:22to make

00:27:23electronics.

00:27:23You can

00:27:24use gold.

00:27:24Nobody's

00:27:25going to

00:27:25order a

00:27:25Bitcoin ring,

00:27:26but you'll

00:27:27buy a gold

00:27:27ring if you

00:27:28get married.

00:27:29It's not

00:27:29dual use.

00:27:31And I

00:27:32mean,

00:27:32it's slow.

00:27:34I mean,

00:27:34a lot of

00:27:35people I've

00:27:36talked to

00:27:36by Bitcoin,

00:27:37they don't

00:27:38even realize

00:27:38that there

00:27:39is such

00:27:39a thing

00:27:39as a

00:27:40Satoshi.

00:27:41They think

00:27:42you've got

00:27:42to buy.

00:27:44It's like

00:27:44when I was

00:27:45a kid,

00:27:46there was

00:27:46a movie

00:27:47that was

00:27:47shown in

00:27:47my boarding

00:27:48school called

00:27:48The Million

00:27:50Pound Note.

00:27:51I mean,

00:27:51this would be

00:27:52the equivalent,

00:27:52I guess,

00:27:53to a billion

00:27:53pound note

00:27:54now or

00:27:54something like

00:27:54that.

00:27:55The Million

00:27:55Pound Note.

00:27:57And like,

00:27:57what can you

00:27:58buy with a

00:27:58million pound

00:27:59note?

00:28:00I don't

00:28:00know.

00:28:01An MP?

00:28:03Prince Andrew?

00:28:04I don't

00:28:04know.

00:28:04But they

00:28:06think that

00:28:06they literally

00:28:07think that

00:28:07you have

00:28:08to buy

00:28:08or sell

00:28:08a whole

00:28:09Bitcoin.

00:28:09But they

00:28:10still have

00:28:10opinions about

00:28:11it,

00:28:11but they

00:28:11don't even

00:28:11understand

00:28:11the basic

00:28:12technology.

00:28:13And so

00:28:14people are

00:28:15given their

00:28:16idiot talking

00:28:17points by

00:28:18fools who

00:28:21are subject

00:28:23to huge

00:28:24conflict of

00:28:24interest.

00:28:25Like,

00:28:26yeah,

00:28:26of course,

00:28:26a guy who's

00:28:27selling stocks

00:28:28is going to

00:28:28be anti-Bitcoin,

00:28:29blah, blah, blah.

00:28:30People who want

00:28:31all of the

00:28:31corruption of

00:28:32central banking

00:28:32are going to

00:28:33be anti-Bitcoin,

00:28:34blah, blah, blah.

00:28:35People who sell

00:28:35a lot of gold,

00:28:36are going to

00:28:37be anti-Bitcoin,

00:28:38blah, blah, blah.

00:28:38Right?

00:28:39I mean,

00:28:39I get that there's

00:28:40conflicts of interest

00:28:41with the Bitcoin

00:28:41people too as well.

00:28:42I understand that.

00:28:44But at least

00:28:44that's fairly obvious,

00:28:45right?

00:28:46So people get

00:28:47their idiot

00:28:48talking points

00:28:48and they just

00:28:50recite them.

00:28:51Like,

00:28:52you always think

00:28:52about actors who

00:28:53they have to play

00:28:54a character who

00:28:55speaks Japanese.

00:28:56They don't go out

00:28:56and learn Japanese,

00:28:57which is like a

00:28:58decade-long process

00:28:59if you're lucky.

00:29:00They just learn

00:29:01the mouth sounds

00:29:02of Japanese.

00:29:04That's it.

00:29:04That's all they do.

00:29:05And people learn

00:29:07the mouth sounds

00:29:08of TradFi

00:29:09criticisms of Bitcoin

00:29:10and they go around

00:29:11mouthing it around.

00:29:12And I love them for it.

00:29:14I think it is a

00:29:15massive,

00:29:16beautiful,

00:29:18wonderful,

00:29:18delicious,

00:29:19delightful,

00:29:19and good service

00:29:20that they are providing

00:29:21to mankind.

00:29:23Bitcoin

00:29:23is not a value

00:29:26just for the people

00:29:27who understand it.

00:29:30Bitcoin

00:29:30is not just a value

00:29:32for the people

00:29:33who like it.

00:29:34I would say,

00:29:35argue,

00:29:36that a significant

00:29:37portion of the value

00:29:39of Bitcoin

00:29:40is that it repels

00:29:42vain,

00:29:44pompous,

00:29:44posturing,

00:29:45empty-headed

00:29:46idiots.

00:29:47It keeps them

00:29:48far at bay,

00:29:50long way away.

00:29:51Because if you just

00:29:52mouth empty

00:29:53platitudes,

00:29:54you don't deserve

00:29:56Bitcoin.

00:29:57If you don't

00:29:58research it

00:29:59and you just

00:29:59put it down,

00:30:00not only do you

00:30:01not deserve

00:30:01any Bitcoin,

00:30:02but no empty-headed,

00:30:04vacuous,

00:30:05space-eyed moron

00:30:06who listens to you

00:30:07deserves Bitcoin

00:30:08either.

00:30:09Bitcoin is

00:30:10accumulating

00:30:11as a whole,

00:30:13as a whole,

00:30:14to wise,

00:30:15smart,

00:30:15humble people.

00:30:17And Bitcoin

00:30:18is accumulating

00:30:18in particular

00:30:19to those

00:30:20who know

00:30:21that it is

00:30:22a moral mission

00:30:23for the

00:30:24salvation

00:30:24of mankind

00:30:26from an

00:30:27AI,

00:30:28hyper-observational,

00:30:30central bank

00:30:30digital currency,

00:30:31totalitarian state.

00:30:33It's Bitcoin

00:30:33or bust.

00:30:34I made the speech.

00:30:36I won't repeat

00:30:36the whole thing.

00:30:37I made the speech

00:30:37like 12 years ago.

00:30:39Oh, no,

00:30:40you've been in 13?

00:30:41I made it 13.1 years ago.

00:30:43Oh, petty, petty.

00:30:44But, yeah,

00:30:45it's Bitcoin or bust.

00:30:46We either get to Bitcoin

00:30:47or we're kind of

00:30:49enslaved forever.

00:30:50And what George Orwell

00:30:52anticipated

00:30:53is going to be nothing

00:30:54based on what

00:30:55is going to come,

00:30:57where your

00:30:58social credit score

00:30:59is monitored

00:31:01by AI.

00:31:03Your photos,

00:31:04your posts

00:31:05are all monitored

00:31:06by AI.

00:31:07Any wrong think

00:31:08will be immediately

00:31:09punished with no,

00:31:10because at least

00:31:11totalitarianism

00:31:11in the past

00:31:12was limited

00:31:12by the human labor

00:31:14that was required

00:31:14to maintain it

00:31:15with AI

00:31:17and computers

00:31:18and the automation

00:31:19of the downgrades

00:31:20in your social credit score.

00:31:22The limit

00:31:24on totalitarianism

00:31:26that is required

00:31:27because people

00:31:28would have to

00:31:28manually go through

00:31:29things is lifted.

00:31:31So, it's Bitcoin or bust.

00:31:33So, if people

00:31:34just mouth

00:31:35things that they

00:31:36don't understand,

00:31:37if they have never

00:31:38researched any

00:31:38counter-arguments,

00:31:40I don't want them

00:31:41touching the beautiful

00:31:42snow-white moral

00:31:43purity of Bitcoin.

00:31:44They should stay

00:31:45away from it.

00:31:46And I've encouraged

00:31:47people repeatedly

00:31:48on X.

00:31:49When they don't

00:31:49understand Bitcoin,

00:31:50I'm like,

00:31:51please tell your friends.

00:31:53Tell everyone you know

00:31:55how stupid

00:31:56you think

00:31:56Bitcoin is.

00:31:57Please,

00:31:58for the love

00:31:59of all that's holy,

00:32:01fiat currency

00:32:01is for morons,

00:32:03Bitcoin

00:32:03is for the elite.

00:32:05And I'm not

00:32:06a moral elite,

00:32:06intellectual elite,

00:32:08humility elite,

00:32:10rational elite,

00:32:11whatever you want

00:32:11to call it.

00:32:12But we are,

00:32:14as the smart people

00:32:15and the moral people,

00:32:17particularly

00:32:17listeners to this

00:32:19show,

00:32:20we are staking

00:32:21our claim

00:32:21on the

00:32:23new continent

00:32:24called

00:32:25Moralistan,

00:32:28Virtuopolis,

00:32:30the shining city

00:32:31on the hill.

00:32:33And I strongly

00:32:35encourage you

00:32:36to do this.

00:32:38You,

00:32:38the caller,

00:32:39everyone who's

00:32:39out there.

00:32:40If people are

00:32:41idiots about Bitcoin,

00:32:42don't correct them.

00:32:43Encourage them.

00:32:45That's interesting.

00:32:46You should tell

00:32:46more people about this.

00:32:48You really should.

00:32:50Because Bitcoin

00:32:51can survive

00:32:51just about

00:32:53anything

00:32:53except idiots

00:32:54getting a hold

00:32:55of Bitcoin.

00:32:56And we've had

00:32:58to suffer

00:32:58under the rule

00:32:59of idiots

00:32:59living as we do

00:33:01in a bribe-ocracy,

00:33:03right,

00:33:04where the productive

00:33:04get stripped

00:33:05of their resources

00:33:06in order to buy

00:33:06votes from the

00:33:07incompetent

00:33:08and the foolish

00:33:08and the greedy

00:33:09and the wastrels.

00:33:10and the incontinent

00:33:12and impulsive

00:33:14people who won't

00:33:15take responsibility

00:33:15for their actions

00:33:16shift the burden

00:33:17to the more responsible

00:33:18and we get plowed

00:33:19under the wet earth

00:33:20of grasping fingers.

00:33:23And we get to

00:33:26a meritocracy

00:33:28with zero barriers

00:33:30to entry

00:33:31that are physical.

00:33:33The meritocracy

00:33:34of understanding

00:33:35the need for

00:33:37a store of value

00:33:39independent of

00:33:40political control.

00:33:41Tis a consummation

00:33:42devoutly to be

00:33:43wished.

00:33:45Money

00:33:45outside

00:33:47the greasy

00:33:48grasp of greedy

00:33:49politicians

00:33:49is essential

00:33:51not just for

00:33:53a better economy,

00:33:54that's true,

00:33:55not just for

00:33:56the depoliticization

00:33:57of the economy,

00:33:59that's also true,

00:34:00but for the

00:34:01salvation of mankind

00:34:02from the predations

00:34:04of inflation,

00:34:05the manipulations

00:34:05of interest,

00:34:06and the population

00:34:08shredding disasters

00:34:09of endless war

00:34:10and the enslavement

00:34:12of the next generation

00:34:12through debt,

00:34:13deficits,

00:34:14and unfunded liabilities.

00:34:16So,

00:34:17we have an aristocracy

00:34:18of value

00:34:21acquisition

00:34:22based on what?

00:34:24Well,

00:34:24I mean,

00:34:24of course,

00:34:25you've got to have

00:34:25some scratch

00:34:26to buy

00:34:26some Bitcoin,

00:34:28but it is based

00:34:29on the willingness

00:34:31to cast aside

00:34:33all prior knowledge

00:34:34and start from scratch,

00:34:35which is really

00:34:36the dream of Socrates.

00:34:37Socrates says,

00:34:37the only thing

00:34:38I'm certain of

00:34:38is that I know nothing.

00:34:40And the sophists

00:34:41and the liars

00:34:41and the manipulators

00:34:42and the bribers,

00:34:44those who,

00:34:45like all sophists,

00:34:46make the worst argument

00:34:47appear the better,

00:34:48have been in charge

00:34:49of the human universe

00:34:50since there was

00:34:51such a thing.

00:34:53But now,

00:34:54finally,

00:34:55we get the chance

00:34:56to acquire value

00:34:57based on humility.

00:35:00Based on humility.

00:35:01In my salad days,

00:35:04I went to people I knew

00:35:06and I said,

00:35:06Bitcoin is very important.

00:35:09You know how we've studied

00:35:10this stuff since I was

00:35:11in my mid-teens?

00:35:12It's very important.

00:35:14Ah,

00:35:14what do you know about?

00:35:15You don't know anything,

00:35:16blah, blah, blah.

00:35:17Even if it is the email of money,

00:35:19who makes money off email?

00:35:20Even if it is the internet of money,

00:35:23who makes money

00:35:24from pushing just

00:35:25empty digits around?

00:35:27Show me something tangible.

00:35:29Well,

00:35:29I guess your own stupidity

00:35:31isn't tangible

00:35:32and I can't show you that.

00:35:33But the people

00:35:34who are willing to

00:35:34wipe the slate clean,

00:35:37the people who are willing

00:35:38to take all their prior

00:35:40conceptions,

00:35:40like a whiteboard,

00:35:41and just hose it down

00:35:42and start from scratch.

00:35:44What is value?

00:35:44What is truth?

00:35:45What is goodness?

00:35:45What is storage?

00:35:47What is money?

00:35:49What is politics?

00:35:50What is theater?

00:35:52What is debt?

00:35:53What is profit?

00:35:55What is wealth?

00:35:56I spent the last week and a half

00:35:59chatting with our good friends

00:36:01on the Indian subcontinent

00:36:03who think that

00:36:04the transfer of gold

00:36:06makes people wealthy,

00:36:09like they never heard of Spain

00:36:10and the 400-year recession

00:36:12that followed the acquisition

00:36:14of gold from the New World,

00:36:15where they debased

00:36:16and destroyed their currency.

00:36:18So,

00:36:18we finally have

00:36:20philosophy,

00:36:22humility,

00:36:23virtue,

00:36:24the lack of pretense of knowledge

00:36:26and the building up

00:36:27wisdom from scratch.

00:36:29Finally,

00:36:30it doesn't just get you

00:36:31a cup of fucking hemlock.

00:36:34A commitment to universal values

00:36:36and virtues

00:36:36no longer gets you

00:36:37nailed to a cross,

00:36:39no longer gets you

00:36:40tortured

00:36:42like the aged Galileo,

00:36:45no longer lets you

00:36:46get drawn and quartered

00:36:49like heretics

00:36:49in the Middle Ages,

00:36:51no longer lets you get

00:36:53or forces you

00:36:54to be de-platformed.

00:36:56I mean,

00:36:56that will still happen,

00:36:57but you can't be de-platformed

00:36:58from blockchain.

00:37:00It is the haven.

00:37:01It is the safe haven

00:37:02for

00:37:04humble and moral souls.

00:37:07An utter reversal

00:37:08of the

00:37:09majority-fool dominance

00:37:11of endlessly

00:37:13greedy,

00:37:15graspy,

00:37:16Aztec child-shredding

00:37:17fiat currency

00:37:19intergenerational theft

00:37:20and enslavement.

00:37:22It is

00:37:23a value

00:37:24to be earned

00:37:26by reason

00:37:27and the self-erasure

00:37:28of prior propaganda

00:37:29and the building of knowledge

00:37:31from first

00:37:32principles.

00:37:34Naturally,

00:37:35I have to put in the caveat,

00:37:37clearly,

00:37:38that's not everyone

00:37:39in Bitcoin,

00:37:40but that's the essence

00:37:40of what it is.

00:37:42And

00:37:43the reason why

00:37:45Bitcoin

00:37:46is not worth

00:37:47as much as gold

00:37:49is because

00:37:51people aren't willing

00:37:52to unlearn

00:37:53the evils

00:37:53they've learned,

00:37:54and that's fine.

00:37:56They can be left behind.

00:37:58But the people

00:37:58who are

00:37:59willing to be humble

00:38:00in the face of new knowledge

00:38:01and to understand

00:38:03the shining staircase

00:38:05to the glowing

00:38:06golden city

00:38:08on the hill

00:38:08that Bitcoin

00:38:09and only Bitcoin

00:38:10represents,

00:38:12we can ascend.

00:38:12the prior aristocracy

00:38:15was based

00:38:16on the violent

00:38:18acquisition of land.

00:38:20The new aristocracy

00:38:21is based

00:38:23on the fraudulent

00:38:24creation

00:38:25of made-up money.

00:38:27But the future

00:38:28aristocracy

00:38:29will be based

00:38:31on

00:38:31the humble acceptance

00:38:33of basic

00:38:34moral truths

00:38:36that human beings

00:38:37cannot handle power.

00:38:39human beings

00:38:41cannot handle

00:38:43the right

00:38:44of infinite fraud

00:38:45and counterfeiting.

00:38:47Human beings

00:38:48can only handle

00:38:50peace,

00:38:51reason,

00:38:52the non-initiation

00:38:53force

00:38:53that Bitcoin

00:38:54represents.

00:38:55It will not make

00:38:56a perfect universe,

00:38:58but

00:38:59it rewards

00:39:00humility,

00:39:02reason,

00:39:03and a dedication

00:39:04to peace

00:39:05at any price.

00:39:06And that's why

00:39:07it's not worth more,

00:39:08because people

00:39:10are worthless.

00:39:11Does that help

00:39:13at all,

00:39:13at least from my perspective?

00:39:15All right.

00:39:16We may have lost it.

00:39:17All right.

00:39:17Does anybody else

00:39:18questions,

00:39:19comments,

00:39:19issues,

00:39:20challenges,

00:39:20problems?

00:39:21Appreciate you all.

00:39:22Thank you for dropping by today.

00:39:24A great pleasure to chat,

00:39:25and you guys certainly do poke

00:39:27some fairly decent language

00:39:29out of me,

00:39:29and I thank you for

00:39:30all of that.

00:39:31All right.

00:39:32I think we have not.

00:39:33I have

00:39:34done good

00:39:35or put people to sleep.

00:39:36I think done good.

00:39:37I think done good.

00:39:38Oh,

00:39:39he's back.

00:39:40Is there something

00:39:41that you wanted to mention

00:39:41at the end?

00:39:43I just wanted to

00:39:44respond,

00:39:45but yeah,

00:39:45absolutely.

00:39:46I couldn't agree more

00:39:47of what you say.

00:39:49COIN is all about

00:39:50the moral mission,

00:39:51and

00:39:51yeah,

00:39:53just the whole process

00:39:54of reducing state power

00:39:56that is just causing

00:39:57so many issues

00:39:57in the world.

00:39:59But yeah,

00:39:59thank you so much

00:40:00for your response,

00:40:01and I just want to say

00:40:02one other thing

00:40:03that really blew my mind

00:40:04that you spoke

00:40:06about once,

00:40:07and I've been in

00:40:09Bitcoin a long time,

00:40:09and this absolutely

00:40:10melted my brain.

00:40:12You were talking about

00:40:13how Bitcoin

00:40:14created a universal

00:40:16standard for

00:40:17money and

00:40:18transacting,

00:40:19and it took away

00:40:21what you said,

00:40:22it took away

00:40:23exceptions from

00:40:24society,

00:40:24and it was this

00:40:26focus on exceptions,

00:40:27because in the current

00:40:28monetary system,

00:40:29financial system,

00:40:30we have so many

00:40:31exceptions that

00:40:33benefit a few people.

00:40:35So for example,

00:40:35it could be anything

00:40:36from arbitrary

00:40:37decision-making

00:40:38to bailouts

00:40:39to favorable

00:40:40regulations

00:40:41to too big to fail,

00:40:43too big to jail,

00:40:44all these different

00:40:45exceptions,

00:40:45and so what Bitcoin

00:40:46does is it gets

00:40:47rid of those

00:40:48exceptions,

00:40:49and the way you

00:40:50described it is

00:40:51when you have

00:40:51exceptions in a

00:40:52society,

00:40:53the exceptions

00:40:54take you to hell.

00:40:55It creates a

00:40:55win-lose situation,

00:40:57which is essentially

00:40:58what is the animal

00:40:59nature of humans,

00:41:03of how we used

00:41:04to be before we

00:41:05became civilized,

00:41:06you know,

00:41:06and instead,

00:41:08you know,

00:41:08Bitcoin takes us

00:41:09to a win-win

00:41:10situation,

00:41:11which is much

00:41:12more enlightened,

00:41:13and learning that

00:41:15just blew my mind,

00:41:16because once you

00:41:17see those exceptions,

00:41:18you see them

00:41:18everywhere,

00:41:19and when you

00:41:20realize that Bitcoin

00:41:20can get rid of

00:41:21all of them and

00:41:22level society,

00:41:23it's like,

00:41:24yes,

00:41:24profound.

00:41:25I appreciate

00:41:26that,

00:41:26and thanks,

00:41:27James,

00:41:27who also mentioned

00:41:28bankmen,

00:41:29Freed.

00:41:31Bankman Freed,

00:41:32another serious

00:41:34STEM artist,

00:41:35and Bankman

00:41:35Freed is,

00:41:37again,

00:41:38I think it's part

00:41:39of the nod.

00:41:40It's not Adams,

00:41:41but I think call it

00:41:42a nod from the

00:41:43simulation.

00:41:43I don't believe in

00:41:44simulation theory,

00:41:45but it's kind of

00:41:45funny having these

00:41:47coincidences.

00:41:49All right,

00:41:49somebody else had

00:41:49something they

00:41:50wanted to say.

00:41:51They kind of

00:41:51surfaced and went

00:41:52back down like an

00:41:54easy humpback whale.

00:41:55Are you in?

00:41:56Just for those of

00:41:57you who want to

00:41:58support the show,

00:41:58want to support

00:41:59what it is that

00:41:59I do,

00:42:00I really do

00:42:00appreciate that,

00:42:01and if I've

00:42:01provided value to

00:42:02you over the

00:42:03last almost 20

00:42:04years,

00:42:04I would really

00:42:05appreciate some

00:42:06support at

00:42:06freedom.com.

00:42:07And also,

00:42:09I've done chapter

00:42:1110 of my new

00:42:12novel as an

00:42:13audiobook.

00:42:13It's really some

00:42:14fantastic writing.

00:42:15I hope you'll

00:42:15check it out.

00:42:16All right,

00:42:17we have

00:42:18Gadsden.

00:42:20Now I'm thinking

00:42:21of an actor.

00:42:23Gadsden,

00:42:23what's on your

00:42:23mind?

00:42:24Unless you

00:42:25misclicked.

00:42:27Sorry,

00:42:27can you hear

00:42:28me?

00:42:28Yes,

00:42:28sir,

00:42:28go ahead.

00:42:29Yeah,

00:42:30so I just

00:42:31listened to

00:42:32one of the

00:42:33Mises videos,

00:42:35and there was

00:42:35this gold

00:42:36bargain who

00:42:36was talking

00:42:37about how

00:42:39Bitcoin was

00:42:39problematic.

00:42:40It uses a

00:42:41lot of energy

00:42:42and other

00:42:43falsehoods.

00:42:44And I'm,

00:42:45you know,

00:42:45for those who

00:42:46don't know,

00:42:46and I'm sure

00:42:47most people

00:42:47here do,

00:42:48you can use

00:42:48the,

00:42:49most of us

00:42:49use the

00:42:50Lightning Network

00:42:50or another

00:42:51alternative chain

00:42:52for these types

00:42:54of transactions

00:42:54that don't

00:42:55really use a

00:42:56lot of

00:42:56energy.

00:42:57So I'm

00:42:57wondering,

00:42:58I mean,

00:42:59you spoke

00:42:59about going

00:43:00on the

00:43:00offensive,

00:43:01and I feel

00:43:02like after I

00:43:03end up in

00:43:03the sort

00:43:04of libertarian

00:43:06Google nanobot

00:43:07who has to

00:43:08research these

00:43:09things,

00:43:09as you're very

00:43:10familiar,

00:43:11should we go

00:43:11on the

00:43:12offensive for

00:43:12these Philistines

00:43:13or how should

00:43:14we handle

00:43:15them?

00:43:16Well,

00:43:17I mean,

00:43:17there's a couple

00:43:17of questions

00:43:18just to find

00:43:18out if people

00:43:19think.

00:43:20I mean,

00:43:20just find out

00:43:21if people

00:43:21think.

00:43:22Right,

00:43:23so I posted

00:43:24the other day

00:43:24about how

00:43:25of course

00:43:26the settlers

00:43:27didn't hand

00:43:28out smallpox

00:43:29blankets to

00:43:30wipe out

00:43:30the native

00:43:31population.

00:43:32Like,

00:43:32of course

00:43:32they didn't.

00:43:33There wasn't

00:43:33even a

00:43:33robust germ

00:43:34theory until

00:43:35the 1880s,

00:43:36and in

00:43:361832,

00:43:37there was a

00:43:38desperate

00:43:38attempt to

00:43:39try and

00:43:39inoculate the

00:43:40native population

00:43:41against smallpox

00:43:41with an actual

00:43:43act of Congress.

00:43:45But so,

00:43:45yeah,

00:43:45of course,

00:43:46and of course

00:43:46they didn't

00:43:47know that

00:43:49smallpox could

00:43:51be carried with

00:43:51blankets,

00:43:52and it actually

00:43:52can't be,

00:43:53except for a

00:43:53couple of

00:43:53hours,

00:43:54and then

00:43:54even then,

00:43:54the smallpox

00:43:55would have to

00:43:55be rubbed

00:43:56into some

00:43:56sort of

00:43:56open wound

00:43:58or sore,

00:43:58and it never

00:43:59worked.

00:43:59And there was

00:44:00like one guy

00:44:00who mentioned

00:44:01it in passing,

00:44:02but it never

00:44:02worked.

00:44:02It's all just

00:44:03a bunch of

00:44:03Marxist nonsense.

00:44:05But so,

00:44:06yeah,

00:44:06so if you hear

00:44:07this stuff,

00:44:08my first impulse

00:44:08is, okay,

00:44:09what's the

00:44:09counter case,

00:44:10right?

00:44:10So you just

00:44:11ask if people

00:44:11think.

00:44:12So Bitcoin

00:44:12uses energy,

00:44:14right?

00:44:14It's like,

00:44:15okay,

00:44:16do hospitals

00:44:17use energy?

00:44:18Yes.

00:44:19Should we

00:44:19shut them down?

00:44:20Well,

00:44:20no.

00:44:21It's like,

00:44:21okay,

00:44:21so using

00:44:22energy isn't

00:44:23bad.

00:44:24Quick question.

00:44:25If you fall

00:44:26down the stairs

00:44:27and your shin

00:44:28is sticking out

00:44:29through your

00:44:29skin,

00:44:31would you call

00:44:32911?

00:44:33Well,

00:44:33because that

00:44:33costs energy.

00:44:35And then,

00:44:36heaven forbid,

00:44:36that the

00:44:37ambulance comes

00:44:37to get you,

00:44:38that costs

00:44:39energy as well.

00:44:40Sirens and

00:44:40lights and gas

00:44:41and all of that.

00:44:42Would you call?

00:44:43So,

00:44:43of course,

00:44:44so then you

00:44:44say,

00:44:44well,

00:44:45the use of

00:44:45energy is

00:44:45not bad,

00:44:47right?

00:44:48And then I

00:44:48would say,

00:44:49how much

00:44:50excessive

00:44:50energy has

00:44:51been used

00:44:52by buying

00:44:54things on

00:44:54credit,

00:44:56right?

00:44:56Because if a

00:44:57guy goes out

00:44:57and orders a

00:44:58Maserati that

00:44:59he can't pay

00:45:00for,

00:45:00he's just,

00:45:01in a sense,

00:45:01created one

00:45:02extra Maserati,

00:45:03right?

00:45:03Because by the

00:45:04time it's

00:45:04returned,

00:45:04there's probably

00:45:05another one

00:45:05made.

00:45:06And so when

00:45:06you buy

00:45:06things using

00:45:07debt,

00:45:08you are

00:45:08stimulating

00:45:09production in

00:45:09the here and

00:45:10now,

00:45:10consumption in

00:45:11the here and

00:45:11now.

00:45:12And so how

00:45:13much

00:45:13energy does

00:45:15the national

00:45:16debt represent

00:45:16that has

00:45:17been consumed

00:45:18in advance

00:45:20of what

00:45:21people can

00:45:22afford?

00:45:23Okay,

00:45:24what about

00:45:24unfunded

00:45:24liabilities?

00:45:25In America,

00:45:26for instance,

00:45:26that's $200

00:45:27trillion,

00:45:28which is

00:45:29massive,

00:45:31right?

00:45:31Absolutely

00:45:32massive.

00:45:33Many,

00:45:34many,

00:45:34many multiples

00:45:34of the

00:45:35entire economy

00:45:36in unfunded

00:45:37liabilities,

00:45:37which is promises

00:45:38that the

00:45:38government has

00:45:39made that it

00:45:39does not have

00:45:39the money

00:45:40for.

00:45:41What about

00:45:42money printing?

00:45:42So the

00:45:43fact that

00:45:44America and

00:45:46other countries,

00:45:46of course,

00:45:47I don't want

00:45:47to just pick

00:45:47on our

00:45:48American

00:45:48friends,

00:45:49but the

00:45:49fact that

00:45:49the government

00:45:50can fund

00:45:52a whole bunch

00:45:52of stuff

00:45:53without raising

00:45:53taxes,

00:45:55how much

00:45:55energy does

00:45:56that consume?

00:45:57How much

00:45:57energy does

00:45:58mass migration,

00:45:59which is a

00:45:59government project

00:46:00funded by

00:46:01fiat currency

00:46:01and debt,

00:46:02how much

00:46:03is that?

00:46:03Right?

00:46:04So just ask

00:46:04people some

00:46:05basic questions.

00:46:06How much

00:46:06does war cost

00:46:08in terms of

00:46:09energy?

00:46:10War is a

00:46:11massive consumer

00:46:11of energy and

00:46:13of course the

00:46:13entire purpose

00:46:14of an army

00:46:14is to break

00:46:16things and

00:46:16kill people.

00:46:17Those people

00:46:18need to be

00:46:18replaced,

00:46:19which costs

00:46:19more energy.

00:46:20Think of all

00:46:20the energy it

00:46:21costs to raise

00:46:21a human being,

00:46:22put them in a

00:46:23battlefield and

00:46:23have them blown

00:46:24up by a drone.

00:46:25The drone costs

00:46:26energy,

00:46:27the training costs

00:46:27energy,

00:46:28the people cost

00:46:29energy,

00:46:31and so how much

00:46:31energy does war?

00:46:33And try funding

00:46:33a war on Bitcoin

00:46:35and just how would

00:46:36you fund a war?

00:46:37If the government

00:46:37ran on Bitcoin,

00:46:38how would you fund

00:46:39a war?

00:46:39Well, you'd

00:46:40have to ask

00:46:41people to

00:46:41donate their

00:46:42Bitcoin,

00:46:42but you couldn't

00:46:43just create

00:46:44your own

00:46:44Bitcoin.

00:46:45So you just

00:46:46ask people

00:46:46some basic

00:46:47questions about

00:46:48energy.

00:46:49Now, an

00:46:50honest person,

00:46:51of which,

00:46:52you know,

00:46:52there's those of

00:46:53us in this chat

00:46:54and maybe 12

00:46:54other people,

00:46:56and you can

00:46:56purchase your

00:46:57honesty at

00:46:57freedomend.com

00:46:58slash donate.

00:46:59No, that's just

00:46:59a little bit of

00:46:59integrity.

00:47:00But anyway,

00:47:01so honest people,

00:47:03when you point

00:47:03this out,

00:47:03would be like,

00:47:04huh, I never

00:47:05thought about that

00:47:06before.

00:47:07And I'd be like,

00:47:07yeah, good,

00:47:08good, you know,

00:47:09I get it.

00:47:10But, you know,

00:47:10that might want to

00:47:11be a habit you

00:47:12get into, right?

00:47:13If somebody says,

00:47:14oh, Bitcoin is

00:47:15not backed by

00:47:16anything.

00:47:18Okay, have you

00:47:18ever, like, what

00:47:19are the counter

00:47:19arguments of that?

00:47:20This is what I ask

00:47:21people as a whole.

00:47:22What are the

00:47:23counter arguments?

00:47:24Like, you know,

00:47:24believe it or not,

00:47:25I've been called a

00:47:26racist in the past.

00:47:27Shocking.

00:47:28And, you know,

00:47:29whenever I'm called

00:47:30a racist, I'm like,

00:47:31oh, so tell me

00:47:33where you've called

00:47:33a non-white person

00:47:34a racist.

00:47:35And, of course,

00:47:35nobody who calls me

00:47:36a racist has ever

00:47:37called a non-white

00:47:37person a racist,

00:47:38which means they're

00:47:39just a racist.

00:47:40And their opinion

00:47:41can be utterly

00:47:42discarded.

00:47:44So people say,

00:47:45oh, Bitcoin uses

00:47:45a lot of energy.

00:47:46Okay, so the

00:47:47fundamental question

00:47:48is compared to

00:47:49what?

00:47:50Compared to what?

00:47:51And if people

00:47:52have never thought

00:47:54of that, have never

00:47:54looked up a

00:47:56counter argument,

00:47:57then I would say,

00:47:58look, you can't

00:47:59really call yourself

00:48:00knowledgeable about

00:48:01anything unless you

00:48:02know the counter

00:48:03arguments.

00:48:03You don't know

00:48:05anything if you

00:48:06don't know the

00:48:07arguments against

00:48:07it, which is

00:48:09why when I do

00:48:10shows, I'm like,

00:48:11please, please

00:48:12come on board

00:48:12and tell me how

00:48:15I'm wrong.

00:48:16What did I get

00:48:16wrong?

00:48:17It's all Kevin

00:48:17Samuel's line,

00:48:17right?

00:48:19You know,

00:48:19issues,

00:48:21criticisms.

00:48:21I'm always

00:48:22inviting people

00:48:22when that philosophy

00:48:23professor a week

00:48:24or two ago

00:48:25wanted to chat,

00:48:25man, top of the

00:48:26line, front of the

00:48:27line, take me down,

00:48:28brother.

00:48:29Sharpen my sword

00:48:31with the sparks

00:48:32of your intellectual

00:48:32whetstone.

00:48:34So if people

00:48:35have these

00:48:36opinions, Bitcoin

00:48:36uses a lot of

00:48:37energy, okay,

00:48:38let's say that it

00:48:38does.

00:48:39It does.

00:48:41Have you looked

00:48:43at the counter

00:48:43examples?

00:48:44And if they

00:48:44haven't, I just

00:48:44invite them to go

00:48:45and do that and

00:48:46come back when

00:48:46they actually know

00:48:47something.

00:48:47Sorry, go ahead.

00:48:48And yeah, that's

00:48:49also been my

00:48:49experience.

00:48:50I mean, the

00:48:50best conversations,

00:48:52they do come from

00:48:53sort of this

00:48:53Socratic way of

00:48:54sort of notching

00:48:55them because you

00:48:56know all the

00:48:56facts that you

00:48:57have to sort of

00:48:58in this labyrinth

00:48:59where they have

00:49:00to, where you

00:49:01have to guide them

00:49:02and they have

00:49:02to learn to

00:49:03get their way

00:49:03out.

00:49:04But I'm thinking

00:49:05in the context of

00:49:06what you said

00:49:07earlier, right,

00:49:08that we don't

00:49:09want necessarily

00:49:10you owning

00:49:11Bitcoin.

00:49:11I mean, please

00:49:12go and tell.

00:49:12I think it's so

00:49:13funny.

00:49:14Yeah, absolutely.

00:49:15And people are

00:49:17like, no, I just

00:49:17know the way

00:49:18Bitcoin uses

00:49:18energy.

00:49:19It's like, so

00:49:19your argument is

00:49:20anything which

00:49:21uses energy is

00:49:21bad.

00:49:23Well, fiat

00:49:23currency uses a

00:49:24huge amount of

00:49:24energy, right?

00:49:26I mean, it

00:49:26literally has to be

00:49:27enforced by law,

00:49:28which takes a lot

00:49:29of energy.

00:49:30So anyway, but

00:49:32if people deny

00:49:32that, I'm like,

00:49:33you know what?

00:49:34Go in peace.

00:49:34Please tell

00:49:35everyone you know

00:49:36that Bitcoin is

00:49:37bad because it

00:49:38uses energy.

00:49:38And be sure to

00:49:39use some energy

00:49:40when telling people

00:49:41that Bitcoin is bad

00:49:41because it uses

00:49:42energy.

00:49:43You be sure to

00:49:43fuel yourself with

00:49:44a sandwich in

00:49:45order to do

00:49:45that.

00:49:46So no, honestly,

00:49:47I've said this

00:49:48from the very

00:49:49beginning, like

00:49:4920 years ago,

00:49:50right?

00:49:51That if you

00:49:53hate me without

00:49:55any reason, what

00:49:56reason is there to

00:49:57hate me?

00:49:58I mean, I'm

00:49:59reasoning for the

00:49:59good of mankind,

00:50:00right?

00:50:00I mean, occasionally

00:50:01I could be a

00:50:02little impatient or

00:50:02whatever, but you

00:50:03know, so I can

00:50:03bear some

00:50:04correction and

00:50:04some, you

00:50:05know, maybe

00:50:05some mellowing

00:50:06of the sharper

00:50:06edges, but not

00:50:07hatred, right?

00:50:08So it's like,

00:50:09yeah, if you

00:50:09think I'm just

00:50:10some bad guy

00:50:11because some

00:50:12idiot with a

00:50:14keyboard told

00:50:14you, then yeah,

00:50:15please go and

00:50:16tell all your

00:50:16friends I'm a

00:50:17bad guy and

00:50:18that way they'll

00:50:19stay away.

00:50:20So yeah, I

00:50:21wrote this about

00:50:22an exclusive club

00:50:24in my new

00:50:25novel, which is

00:50:26called Dissolution

00:50:27and I said

00:50:3010% of the

00:50:31value of the

00:50:32club is who's

00:50:33allowed in, 90%

00:50:34of the value of

00:50:34the club is who's

00:50:35kept out and

00:50:37that's the big

00:50:39box Costco.

00:50:40You need a

00:50:40membership.

00:50:41That's the idea.

00:50:42All right.

00:50:43Well, I

00:50:43appreciate that.

00:50:44Is there

00:50:44anything else

00:50:44you wanted to

00:50:44mention?

00:50:46Yeah, I

00:50:46wanted to

00:50:46mention before

00:50:47leaving, of

00:50:48course, that

00:50:49we have

00:50:50different chains

00:50:52even to

00:50:52Bitcoin.

00:50:53We have the

00:50:53Bitcoin Lightning

00:50:54Network and

00:50:55other ones.

00:50:56So I would

00:50:57not even

00:50:57see the point

00:50:59that Bitcoin

00:51:00uses a lot of

00:51:01energy.

00:51:02I think people

00:51:03just in general

00:51:04on this subject

00:51:05I've never heard

00:51:06so many people

00:51:07speak so,

00:51:07well, actually

00:51:08that's not true,

00:51:09speak so confidently

00:51:10about something

00:51:11they know very

00:51:12little about.

00:51:13But I really

00:51:13appreciate everything

00:51:14Steph and hope

00:51:16you have a great

00:51:17show on with.

00:51:18I appreciate that.

00:51:19Very kind for you

00:51:20guys to drop by

00:51:21tonight.

00:51:21I really do

00:51:21appreciate that.

00:51:22Let's take a

00:51:23last caller,

00:51:24Sam Squared.

00:51:26I always think of

00:51:26Sam like it was a

00:51:29speed module on my

00:51:30old Atari 800.

00:51:32Hello, this is

00:51:33Sam.

00:51:34Hello, this is

00:51:35Sam.

00:51:35Hi, so it's

00:51:39the first time

00:51:39I've heard you

00:51:40and enjoyed

00:51:42what I heard.

00:51:43I enjoy

00:51:44the more

00:51:46philosophical or

00:51:47psychological

00:51:48discussions around

00:51:49Bitcoin.

00:51:51I just wanted to

00:51:52say that I

00:51:53have, since I

00:51:55got into

00:51:55Bitcoin, tried

00:51:56to orange

00:51:57pill people.

00:52:00And so at

00:52:01the beginning I

00:52:02just couldn't

00:52:03understand why

00:52:04these otherwise

00:52:05intelligent, logical

00:52:07people, you

00:52:08know, couldn't

00:52:09accept the

00:52:12evidence that I

00:52:12was presenting to

00:52:13them.

00:52:13So then after a

00:52:15while I sort of

00:52:15stepped back and

00:52:16tried to analyze

00:52:17it all and I

00:52:18came up with a

00:52:18few thoughts.

00:52:20So people

00:52:21sometimes ask

00:52:22what is money?

00:52:23But I think the

00:52:24bigger question is

00:52:25what is their

00:52:26relationship with

00:52:26money?

00:52:27It's not

00:52:28necessarily what is

00:52:28money.

00:52:30And I think

00:52:30there's a kind

00:52:31of a, I think

00:52:33a large percentage

00:52:33of the population

00:52:34have a sort of

00:52:36a Stockholm

00:52:37syndrome

00:52:38relationship with

00:52:41fiat money at

00:52:42this stage.

00:52:43Because it keeps

00:52:44getting stolen

00:52:45from them through

00:52:46inflation and

00:52:46stuff, right?

00:52:47Well, they

00:52:48know, like, people

00:52:49know on some

00:52:51level that

00:52:52governments don't

00:52:53necessarily act in

00:52:55the people's best

00:52:56interests and that

00:52:57they spend money

00:52:58beyond their means

00:52:59and that they

00:53:00fund wars.

00:53:01They know this.

00:53:02like, people

00:53:02know on some

00:53:03level where

00:53:04inflation comes

00:53:05from.

00:53:06They know that

00:53:06when they go to

00:53:07the supermarket

00:53:07that, you know,

00:53:09the price of goods

00:53:10is going up

00:53:11because the

00:53:11government can't

00:53:12balance a budget.

00:53:14But yet, when

00:53:16you try to

00:53:16introduce the

00:53:17concept of a

00:53:18hard money asset

00:53:19which counteracts

00:53:21that, it's like

00:53:22they can't let go

00:53:24from the system

00:53:25that's punishing

00:53:27them.

00:53:27And that's, so

00:53:28that's one

00:53:29observation that it's

00:53:30like a Stockholm

00:53:31syndrome.

00:53:32And then the

00:53:33other...

00:53:33Well, I'm sorry,

00:53:33the other thing

00:53:34too is that when

00:53:35you accept something

00:53:37like the orange

00:53:38pill, you have to

00:53:39look and say,

00:53:40holy shister balls,

00:53:42Batman, every

00:53:43single major

00:53:44institution is

00:53:45lying their asses

00:53:46off to me.

00:53:47Like, why didn't

00:53:47I ever hear about

00:53:48this in government

00:53:49schools or the

00:53:50government media?

00:53:52Or like, there

00:53:53was a bombing, I

00:53:54think it was a

00:53:55bombing of a plane

00:53:56off Ireland and it

00:53:57was being reported

00:53:58on by some Canadian

00:53:59media outlet that

00:54:00I think is pretty

00:54:00much government

00:54:01funded.

00:54:02And they were

00:54:02playing all the

00:54:03sad singing sounds

00:54:04in the background

00:54:04and it's like,

00:54:05what?

00:54:06It's programming

00:54:07people to be sad

00:54:08rather than angry

00:54:09that a hundred

00:54:10people might have

00:54:10been blown out of

00:54:11the sky.

00:54:11So it's just that

00:54:12level of programming

00:54:13that, well, why

00:54:14has nobody ever

00:54:14said this?

00:54:15If it was, it

00:54:16would be on the

00:54:16news.

00:54:16It's like, no,

00:54:17no, it's not

00:54:18going to be on the

00:54:18news.

00:54:19They're all

00:54:19bought and paid

00:54:20for.

00:54:20So I think it's

00:54:21uncoupling people

00:54:22from that.

00:54:22It is unplugging

00:54:23them from the

00:54:24matrix and they

00:54:24wake up in a

00:54:25place that looks

00:54:25very different.

00:54:26Sorry, go ahead.

00:54:27Yes, it is the

00:54:28matrix.

00:54:28And it took me a

00:54:30while to understand

00:54:30that your gripe

00:54:33shouldn't just be

00:54:34with central

00:54:35bankers, bankers,

00:54:37governments.

00:54:38It goes much

00:54:39deeper than that.

00:54:40So as you can

00:54:41probably guess, I'm

00:54:42Irish, but I've

00:54:43been living in New

00:54:43York for 10 years.

00:54:46And I would say

00:54:47that the fiat

00:54:48system extends

00:54:49into the media.

00:54:51It extends

00:54:51into the education

00:54:53system.

00:54:54It extends

00:54:55into the

00:54:55political power

00:54:58as a whole.

00:54:59Yes.

00:54:59Political power

00:55:00is based on

00:55:01money creation.

00:55:02And that's why

00:55:03Bitcoin limits

00:55:04political power

00:55:05because you can't

00:55:06just wish money

00:55:06into existence

00:55:07and use it to

00:55:08bribe people.

00:55:09And so everybody

00:55:10who's a political

00:55:11addict, a political

00:55:12junkie, wants

00:55:13more political

00:55:13power, loves

00:55:15fiat, hates

00:55:16and fears

00:55:17Bitcoin, and

00:55:18they just can't

00:55:18be objective.

00:55:19Sorry, go ahead.

00:55:20So just one

00:55:21final point.

00:55:23So obviously

00:55:24living in New

00:55:25York City,

00:55:25now, others

00:55:27may contradict

00:55:28what I'm about

00:55:28to say, but

00:55:29I would have

00:55:30seen, so I'm

00:55:3152, so when

00:55:34I was in my

00:55:35teenage years and

00:55:35twenties, I

00:55:37would have seen

00:55:37New York City as

00:55:38the capital of

00:55:39capital, right?

00:55:41It was the

00:55:42capital of

00:55:42capitalism, right?

00:55:44New York City in

00:55:45about a month's

00:55:46time is going to

00:55:47elect a very

00:55:48hard-left

00:55:49socialist mayor.

00:55:50And to me, that

00:55:51seems, like I

00:55:52respect democracy,

00:55:54obviously, but to

00:55:54me, that just

00:55:56seems inconceivable.

00:55:57I'm sorry, why

00:55:57do you respect

00:55:58democracy?

00:55:59Well, I mean,

00:56:01you'll obey it,

00:56:01I guess.

00:56:03I respect, I'm a

00:56:06romantic, so I

00:56:06respect if

00:56:07democracy is

00:56:09here.

00:56:10Now, maybe I'm

00:56:11naive, but the

00:56:11point I wanted to

00:56:12make is, you

00:56:13were talking about

00:56:14how people react,

00:56:16and it seems to

00:56:17me that as

00:56:19Bitcoin is

00:56:20getting more

00:56:21widely adopted

00:56:22and as

00:56:22conversations about

00:56:24the money

00:56:25printer being so

00:56:25damaging are

00:56:26penetrating further

00:56:28out into society,

00:56:29there seems to

00:56:30be more people

00:56:31drifting towards

00:56:32sort of running

00:56:35after, like,

00:56:35running after the

00:56:36pied piper, the

00:56:37socialist who's

00:56:38going to promise

00:56:39free things to

00:56:40make the cost of

00:56:40living lower.

00:56:41Then there is

00:56:42coming to the

00:56:42Bitcoin side, and

00:56:44I just think that's

00:56:44an interesting

00:56:45dichotomy that's

00:56:46going on.

00:56:47The rise of

00:56:47Bitcoin in

00:56:48parallel was the

00:56:49rise of socialist

00:56:52ideology.

00:56:53Yeah, there was a

00:56:55teacher I had when

00:56:57I was a kid, I

00:56:58still remember her

00:56:59name, and she

00:57:01would say, do

00:57:03this, right?

00:57:05Do this, do

00:57:05this, please.

00:57:06And if you

00:57:07hesitated or

00:57:08didn't listen,

00:57:08she'd say, I'm

00:57:10asking nicely.

00:57:11And it was

00:57:12vaguely threatening,

00:57:13but she never

00:57:14really followed

00:57:15through on it.

00:57:15And listen, there

00:57:17are people who

00:57:17threw no fault of

00:57:18their own, or

00:57:19down on hard

00:57:20times, and down

00:57:20on hard luck, and

00:57:21so on.

00:57:22But the problem

00:57:23with all this

00:57:23kind of free

00:57:24stuff is that

00:57:24people lie and

00:57:26cheat and steal,

00:57:27and it just

00:57:27corrupts people.

00:57:29So when it

00:57:30comes to charity

00:57:31and helping

00:57:32people, it's

00:57:32like, I just

00:57:33want people to

00:57:34ask nicely.

00:57:35That's all.

00:57:36I just want

00:57:37people to ask

00:57:37nicely.

00:57:38Maybe you're a

00:57:38young woman,

00:57:38maybe you

00:57:39were badly

00:57:39raised, no

00:57:40dad, and you

00:57:41got pregnant out

00:57:41of wedlock, and

00:57:42you're very

00:57:42religious, you

00:57:43want to keep

00:57:43the kid.

00:57:43Hey, you

00:57:44know what, I'm

00:57:45not gonna, you

00:57:46know, you don't

00:57:46burn people like

00:57:47that at the

00:57:47stake.

00:57:48We all have

00:57:49made mistakes

00:57:49over the course

00:57:50of our life.

00:57:50Help people

00:57:51out.

00:57:51But you gotta

00:57:52ask nicely.

00:57:54Don't come at

00:57:54me with the

00:57:55state.

00:57:56Don't come at

00:57:56me with guns

00:57:57and laws and

00:57:58counterfeiting

00:57:59money, printing

00:57:59debt, unfunded

00:58:00liabilities.

00:58:01Don't come at

00:58:02me with that

00:58:02shit.

00:58:03Ask nicely.

00:58:04Ask nicely, and

00:58:05we can talk.

00:58:06But when

00:58:06people are

00:58:07like, you

00:58:07gotta feed my

00:58:08kids, you

00:58:09know, you

00:58:09gotta, or I'm

00:58:11gonna call the

00:58:12cops and raise

00:58:13taxes and print

00:58:14more money.

00:58:15It's like, now

00:58:15you're not asking

00:58:16nicely, now we

00:58:17don't have a

00:58:17friendly relationship.

00:58:19There's a

00:58:19Reacher, it's

00:58:20kind of a goofy

00:58:21semi-cartoony

00:58:22show, but fun,

00:58:24and he's like,

00:58:26no, why not?

00:58:28You didn't ask

00:58:28nicely.

00:58:29Say please.

00:58:30I grew up

00:58:31with the

00:58:31please and

00:58:32thank you and

00:58:33the sort of

00:58:33maybe a little

00:58:34over-anal British

00:58:35repression of

00:58:36any of that

00:58:37kind of

00:58:38aggression, but

00:58:38it's like, ask

00:58:39nicely.

00:58:40When I was a

00:58:40kid, what was

00:58:41I always said?

00:58:43What was I

00:58:43always told?

00:58:44Ask nicely.

00:58:45I want dessert.

00:58:46I want dessert

00:58:47what?

00:58:49Oh, sorry, I

00:58:50want dessert,

00:58:50please.

00:58:51Right?

00:58:52Or my mother

00:58:53would always say

00:58:53when I would

00:58:53say, can I

00:58:54have a piece

00:58:56of chocolate?

00:58:57Well, I know

00:58:57that you can, I

00:58:58just don't know

00:58:59that you may,

00:59:00which is a bit

00:59:00more technical,

00:59:01but yeah, just

00:59:02ask nicely.

00:59:02And Bitcoin

00:59:03restores civility

00:59:04because if you

00:59:06want help, you

00:59:07have to ask

00:59:08nicely.

00:59:09You can't just

00:59:09shake your fist.

00:59:10You can't just

00:59:10shake your fiat

00:59:11fist in people's

00:59:12faces and demand

00:59:12that they fund

00:59:13increasingly

00:59:14self-destructive

00:59:15lifestyles.

00:59:16Just ask

00:59:18nicely.

00:59:18And if you

00:59:19ask nicely, we

00:59:20can talk.

00:59:21And I'm sure

00:59:22that there's a

00:59:22lot that people

00:59:23will do to help

00:59:24those down on

00:59:24their luck, but

00:59:26we also have to

00:59:26keep people away

00:59:28who are going to

00:59:28game the system.

00:59:29Well, you know,

00:59:30there's people who

00:59:31are disabled and

00:59:32they need money.

00:59:33It's like, okay,

00:59:34but then you get a

00:59:34bunch of people who

00:59:35fake disabilities and

00:59:36scam the system.

00:59:37It's, well, we've

00:59:38got to send COVID

00:59:39checks out.

00:59:39It turns out there

00:59:40are billions of

00:59:41dollars stolen through

00:59:42COVID scams and all

00:59:43of this kind of

00:59:44stuff.

00:59:44So everything you do

00:59:45gets corrupted,

00:59:45which is why people

00:59:46have to ask nicely.

00:59:48Otherwise, they'll

00:59:48just eviscerate your

00:59:50financial battles.

00:59:51All right.

00:59:51Is there anything

00:59:51else that you wanted

00:59:52to mention?

00:59:52I think we had

00:59:53another caller or

00:59:54two, if I

00:59:54remember rightly.

00:59:55No, that was it.

00:59:56Thank you for

00:59:56letting me speak and

00:59:57I enjoyed the space

00:59:58so far.

00:59:59Well, thank you.

01:00:00And I appreciate you

01:00:01bringing back the

01:00:02accent of my childhood.

01:00:04I was born in

01:00:05Ireland and spent a

01:00:07good deal of my

01:00:07youth there in and

01:00:09around Athlon.

01:00:10And it was just a

01:00:12lovely, lovely time in

01:00:14Ireland.

01:00:14I absolutely love the

01:00:15place.

01:00:16I'm not sure I'd be

01:00:16allowed back, but I

01:00:17love the place.

01:00:18All right.

01:00:19Colorbloom.

01:00:20Speak now.

01:00:22He ordered.

01:00:24I'm asking nicely.

01:00:25I'm asking nicely.

01:00:26Yes, now.

01:00:27Yes, now.

01:00:28All right.

01:00:29We will move on.

01:00:29Can you hear me?

01:00:30Yes.

01:00:30Hello?

01:00:31Oh, awesome.

01:00:33It's nice to be

01:00:34talking to you finally.

01:00:34I've been listening to

01:00:35your stuff since back

01:00:36when Bitcoin was worth

01:00:37600 bucks a pop.

01:00:39Wow.

01:00:40Nice.

01:00:40Yeah.

01:00:41Back in the

01:00:41days.

01:00:42Yeah.

01:00:42Oh, yeah.

01:00:43Yeah.

01:00:43I wish I bought some

01:00:44back then.

01:00:44And I wish I'd caught

01:00:46this airing.

01:00:48you've had going on

01:00:49tonight.

01:00:49I hope you bring on

01:00:50the same subject again

01:00:51and have another

01:00:52discussion because I

01:00:53think we're mostly

01:00:54running out of time,

01:00:55but I wanted to talk

01:00:55about Cardano and

01:00:57ICP versus Bitcoin

01:00:59because I think they're

01:01:00three incredible crypto

01:01:01projects with a lot of

01:01:02integrity.

01:01:03And I know that

01:01:03Bitcoin could arguably

01:01:05be the most

01:01:05decentralized, the

01:01:07most secure, but

01:01:08Charles Hoskinson,

01:01:10the guy that

01:01:10founded Cardano,

01:01:13was talking about how

01:01:14the problem with

01:01:15Bitcoin is it can't

01:01:16scale and the only

01:01:17way to get it to

01:01:17scale is with

01:01:18third-party

01:01:18solutions, which

01:01:19are centralized.

01:01:22And so he was

01:01:24saying when he

01:01:25built Cardano, he

01:01:26went back to the

01:01:26drawing board of the

01:01:27idea of Bitcoin and

01:01:29said, okay, let's

01:01:29start this thing over.

01:01:30And he essentially

01:01:31tried to create, it's

01:01:33like the same anatomy

01:01:34of a input output.

01:01:37What do you call

01:01:37that?

01:01:38The UTXO model of

01:01:40Bitcoin, but it's

01:01:41extended.

01:01:42And his idea was to

01:01:44make Bitcoin again,

01:01:45but make it get

01:01:46everything right that

01:01:47Bitcoin didn't get

01:01:48right.

01:01:49But then you had

01:01:50Dominic Howard come

01:01:51in.

01:01:51He was around the

01:01:53founding of, he

01:01:55was one of those big

01:01:56crypto guys that was

01:01:57that knew Charles and

01:01:58maybe knew some of the

01:02:00people that created

01:02:00Bitcoin.

01:02:01And he's like, okay,

01:02:01you guys can go do

01:02:02your projects.

01:02:03What I'm going to go

01:02:03try to build is a world

01:02:04computer because if we're

01:02:07going to really get this

01:02:08blockchain thing going

01:02:09to scale, he looked at

01:02:11what Charles was doing

01:02:12and what Bitcoin is

01:02:13doing and Ethereum,

01:02:15you know, like trying

01:02:16to change something

01:02:17mid-flight.

01:02:19He says, if you really

01:02:20want to build a rocket

01:02:20ship that's going to

01:02:21blast off to the moon,

01:02:22you've got to start

01:02:22from scratch and you

01:02:23actually got to build a

01:02:24computer system that's

01:02:26able to be a platform.

01:02:30I enjoy Lord, the next

01:02:32guy, but how do you

01:02:34centralize?

01:02:35How do you speed

01:02:37things up without

01:02:39centralizing?

01:02:39And if you are

01:02:40centralizing, how do you

01:02:42solve the problem of

01:02:43centralized control?

01:02:45Well, right.

01:02:45This is where, I guess

01:02:50what Dominic Howard on

01:02:52ICP was trying to say

01:02:54is you get a

01:02:56decentralized network

01:02:58of, it's like building

01:02:59a new computer

01:03:01infrastructure over all

01:03:02these different

01:03:03jurisdictions all over

01:03:04the globe, which is

01:03:05what they've already,

01:03:06they're in the process

01:03:07of doing and they've

01:03:08already built some.

01:03:09So, bro, I will all

01:03:11do respect and I find

01:03:12the topic fascinating.

01:03:13I've been in tech

01:03:15sales and I know a

01:03:17sales pitch rather than

01:03:18an answer when I hear

01:03:19one.

01:03:19So the challenge with

01:03:21Bitcoin, of course,

01:03:22decentralized is slower,

01:03:23but resists centralized

01:03:25control, which is why

01:03:26Visa can process a

01:03:27zillion transactions a

01:03:29second because it's all

01:03:30centralized, but then

01:03:31you have the problem of

01:03:32centralized control.

01:03:33So decentralization is

01:03:34slow, but it's

01:03:35resistance to tyranny.

01:03:38So how does another

01:03:40architecture solve the

01:03:41problem of that,

01:03:44solve that issue?

01:03:46Well, yeah, I mean,

01:03:47that's where I, you

01:03:48know, I guess I get to

01:03:49get back in and see.

01:03:50It's the kind of thing

01:03:51where like I watch his

01:03:52interviews and I listen

01:03:53and I'm like, okay, he

01:03:53had a good answer to

01:03:54like the question you

01:03:55just posed.

01:03:55But me coming on to

01:03:57the show, I was just

01:03:57more excited to like

01:03:58just talk about the

01:04:00subject.

01:04:00But I think, I mean,

01:04:01he's trying to say

01:04:02there's like on-chain

01:04:02governance.

01:04:04He's trying to say

01:04:05it's decentralized.

01:04:05And I think Charles

01:04:07brought up a good

01:04:08point of like, well,

01:04:08what is decentralized

01:04:09though?

01:04:10And we've got to

01:04:11answer that question

01:04:11actually because you

01:04:12hear the word all

01:04:13over the place.

01:04:14So my experience as a

01:04:16programmer was I sold

01:04:18systems to multinational

01:04:20corporations back in the

01:04:21nineties when everything

01:04:22was crazy slow.

01:04:24And decentralization

01:04:26turned out to be the

01:04:27only way things could

01:04:28work.

01:04:28When I centralized

01:04:29things and there

01:04:30were systems that I

01:04:32had written and

01:04:32created that were in

01:04:33five different continents,

01:04:35and I couldn't have a

01:04:37central database.

01:04:38It was too slow.

01:04:39So I had to have a

01:04:40decentralized database

01:04:41that exchanged

01:04:42information overnight.

01:04:43So I have some actual

01:04:45technical experience in

01:04:47this problem of

01:04:47centralization versus

01:04:48decentralization.

01:04:50And there is no

01:04:52magic wand.

01:04:53If you're going to

01:04:54centralize more, you

01:04:55have the problem of

01:04:55centralized control.

01:04:56If you're going to

01:04:57decentralize, it's going

01:04:58to cost you speed.

01:05:00And it's sort of like

01:05:01back in the day, Java

01:05:02was a layer of

01:05:04abstraction that ran

01:05:05on code that then

01:05:06translated into local

01:05:07machine code, but there

01:05:08was sometimes a 10 to

01:05:0920 times performance

01:05:10hit.

01:05:11So you could write code

01:05:11that, you know, write

01:05:12once, run anywhere.

01:05:14Java, just another

01:05:15vague acronym, I think

01:05:16was the acronym source.

01:05:17Right.

01:05:18And so, yeah, you could

01:05:18write once, run anywhere,

01:05:19but you downgraded

01:05:21computers about 15 years

01:05:22back in the past in

01:05:23terms of speed.

01:05:24So, listen, I'll look

01:05:26into it some more.

01:05:27And if you're welcome

01:05:28back, if you have some

01:05:29more technical stuff or

01:05:30if there's someone you

01:05:30want to bring on, it's

01:05:32like, you know, when

01:05:34Elon Musk, I think, was

01:05:35talking about how fast

01:05:36Doge was, it's like,

01:05:37yeah.

01:05:38And the systems that I

01:05:39wrote were incredibly

01:05:40fast when they were just

01:05:40on my computer, but when

01:05:42we sort of put them on

01:05:42five different continents,

01:05:43they slowed to a crawl,

01:05:45and then I had to have

01:05:46local databases that

01:05:47synchronize to one

01:05:48central database

01:05:49overnight, and it's

01:05:50all very exciting.

01:05:51So, yeah, so I know

01:05:52some sort of the

01:05:53technical side of

01:05:54things, and that is

01:05:56what I'd love to hear

01:05:58more about.

01:05:59But, you know, I

01:05:59understand that it's

01:06:00easy for people to

01:06:01say, well, you know,

01:06:02Bitcoin has this

01:06:03flaw, and, you know,

01:06:04my approach will

01:06:04solve it.

01:06:05And it's like, yeah,

01:06:05but what is that

01:06:06exactly?

01:06:07And that's what I'd

01:06:07like to hear.

01:06:08Well, yeah, yeah.

01:06:09Yeah, exactly.

01:06:09That's right.

01:06:10I wanted to discuss

01:06:11it.

01:06:11I'm sorry, I got

01:06:12caught you at the

01:06:12end of the show.

01:06:13The only last point I

01:06:14want to make is that

01:06:15ICP is more like

01:06:16trying to compete

01:06:17with Amazon and

01:06:19Google Cloud

01:06:19services.

01:06:20It's more like

01:06:21they're creating a

01:06:22platform for

01:06:23computing, whereas

01:06:24Cardano is more like

01:06:26creating a competing

01:06:27cryptocurrency that

01:06:28competes with

01:06:29Bitcoin.

01:06:29So I'm wondering

01:06:30what you thought

01:06:31about the idea of

01:06:31in the future, it

01:06:33wouldn't just be like

01:06:34a single monetary

01:06:35unit cryptocurrency

01:06:36floating around, but

01:06:37it'd be more like

01:06:37decentralized systems of

01:06:39cloud computing, like

01:06:41ICP, where you have

01:06:42canister smart contracts

01:06:43is what they are, and

01:06:45you actually own your

01:06:46own code that you can

01:06:47vote with or something

01:06:48like that.

01:06:49I want to look more

01:06:49into it.

01:06:50I hope you do, too,

01:06:51because I thought it

01:06:52was fascinating.

01:06:53It was something that

01:06:54is not centralized for

01:06:55a cloud for computing

01:06:56like Amazon and

01:06:58Google services or

01:06:59whatever you call

01:07:00Google Cloud.

01:07:01I appreciate that,

01:07:02and I'll get to the

01:07:03last caller, but the

01:07:04challenge then, of

01:07:05course, is that cloud

01:07:06computing is

01:07:06centralized.

01:07:07When you are renting

01:07:09something from Amazon

01:07:10or you are running

01:07:11OneDrive or Google

01:07:12Drive or something like

01:07:13that, that's all being

01:07:14run on centralized

01:07:15computers, which is why

01:07:16it tends to be kind of

01:07:17snappy and fast, but

01:07:18then you have the

01:07:18problem that if

01:07:19somebody is in control

01:07:20of the centralized

01:07:21computers, A, that's a

01:07:22vector of attack that

01:07:23is very vulnerable, and

01:07:25B, it's too much

01:07:26control to give an

01:07:27individual or any

01:07:29corporation or

01:07:30organization any kind

01:07:31of centralized control

01:07:32over human currency as

01:07:34a whole, then we're

01:07:34just kind of back to

01:07:35fiat.

01:07:36All right, let us go

01:07:37with Drago.

01:07:39I feel like you're in a

01:07:41poorly pantsuit about

01:07:44to shake me down for

01:07:45money in Eastern Europe.

01:07:46What is on your

01:07:47mind, my friends?

01:07:48Hi, Siphan.

01:07:49Thanks for having me.

01:07:50I just want to be

01:07:51respectful.

01:07:52Is this topically about

01:07:53Bitcoin and

01:07:54cryptocurrency or just

01:07:55general open forum?

01:07:56If you want to hit me,

01:07:58I've got to eat some

01:07:59food I forgot to eat

01:08:00today, so if you want

01:08:01to hit me with

01:08:01something, sorry to be

01:08:02annoying, but if you

01:08:03have supposed to end

01:08:0420 minutes ago, but if

01:08:05you want to hit me on

01:08:05something relatively

01:08:06short, I'd be thrilled,

01:08:07otherwise you might want

01:08:07to wait for the next

01:08:08one.

01:08:09Yeah, no, I appreciate

01:08:10it.

01:08:10Well, in that case, I'll

01:08:11save, you know, because

01:08:12things like existence of

01:08:14God or something, you

01:08:15know, that's not going to

01:08:15be in time for the food.

01:08:17You want to, no, I

01:08:18might be fast on that

01:08:19one.

01:08:19Lord knows I've had some

01:08:20greasy polish on that

01:08:21subject, so if you

01:08:22wanted to mention

01:08:23something, I'd be happy

01:08:24to give you a response.

01:08:26Okay, well, you know

01:08:27what, let me, okay, so

01:08:28I'll do the short one,

01:08:29but I will ask you, when

01:08:31in general do you do the

01:08:33spaces and the schedule

01:08:34with the subscribers?

01:08:35I did sign up, by the

01:08:36way, and for those

01:08:37listening, I do recommend

01:08:38signing up for Stefan's

01:08:40if you like the

01:08:41philosophy chats.

01:08:42But yeah, I know you

01:08:43have the Sunday

01:08:43subscriber only one.

01:08:45I just want to check,

01:08:45are there other times,

01:08:46or it's just kind of

01:08:47like depending on when

01:08:48you want to speak, you

01:08:49pop up.

01:08:49Depending on as the

01:08:50spirit moves me, so

01:08:51to speak, so I don't

01:08:52have anything, I'm going

01:08:53to get around to

01:08:54scheduling, but I have

01:08:54to, because the

01:08:56subscribers are kind of

01:08:56scattered, and yes, I

01:08:58appreciate your pitch for

01:08:59the subscriptions, but

01:09:00you do get a lot of

01:09:01really juicy, tasty

01:09:01bonuses on the

01:09:03subscriptions, but I

01:09:05have yet to sort of

01:09:06figure out a good time

01:09:07that works for everyone,

01:09:07so it's a little bit

01:09:08catch-a-scatch-can, but

01:09:09so, but yeah, Sunday's

01:09:1111 a.m. is definitely

01:09:12the scheduled time, so

01:09:13yeah, hit me with a

01:09:14question, and I'll do

01:09:15my best.

01:09:16Right on, and last

01:09:18clarification, I'm the

01:09:19guy on the forgiveness

01:09:20thing where I came in

01:09:21with the blitzkriegs, I

01:09:22only had a couple

01:09:22minutes to talk, so

01:09:23thank you for that, and

01:09:24apologies when I had to

01:09:25bail out, but yeah, so

01:09:27I'll save the fun or

01:09:29transcendental thing for

01:09:30next time, but the

01:09:31quick one is, okay, so

01:09:33from an economics

01:09:34argument or finance,

01:09:36you know, we have the

01:09:37present value and the

01:09:38future value of money,

01:09:39right, so present value

01:09:42based on the growth

01:09:43rate becomes future

01:09:44value, future value

01:09:45discounted by the growth

01:09:47rate or discount

01:09:47rate, brings us to

01:09:48present value, so

01:09:49would you agree

01:09:52about interest rates?

01:09:54Yeah, yeah, no, just

01:09:55for those, I want to

01:09:56make an analogy based

01:09:57on economics, right?

01:09:58Okay, just so people,

01:09:59because the future value

01:09:59of money is a bit

01:10:00abstract, and I don't

01:10:01want to reframe your

01:10:02argument, but just let

01:10:03me know if this makes

01:10:03sense to the audience

01:10:04as a whole, because if

01:10:06we rush, we lose

01:10:06people, so interest

01:10:08rates are because money

01:10:09is worth more now than

01:10:12it is in the future, and

01:10:13so if you want money

01:10:14now, you have to agree

01:10:16to pay the price of

01:10:18renting that money, which

01:10:19is the interest rate, so

01:10:20if I want to buy a

01:10:21computer now, let's say

01:10:23I need 500 bucks to buy

01:10:24a computer, the computer

01:10:25is worth more to me

01:10:26now than if I save up

01:10:2810 bucks a week and can

01:10:29buy it in a year, and

01:10:31so because the computer

01:10:32is worth more to me

01:10:33now, I borrow $100 at

01:10:365% interest, so I pay

01:10:37$105 back in a year, but

01:10:39I have the extra year of

01:10:41use of the computer, which

01:10:42is worth 5 bucks or 10

01:10:43bucks, sorry, at 5% at

01:10:45500 bucks, it would be

01:10:46more than that, sorry,

01:10:4810% of 500 bucks would

01:10:50be 50 bucks, 5% would

01:10:51be 25 bucks, so I pay

01:10:53that money in the

01:10:53future because the

01:10:55computer is worth more

01:10:56to me in the present

01:10:57than it is a year from

01:10:58now, and so that's what

01:11:01interest is, is the

01:11:02price of money, because

01:11:03we're mortal and things

01:11:04are worth more now, I

01:11:05mean, I could get hit by

01:11:06a bus between now and

01:11:07next year, in which case

01:11:08there's a risk in lending

01:11:09me the money because I

01:11:10won't pay it back because

01:11:11I'll be dead, but also

01:11:12if I save up to get a

01:11:14computer and I get hit

01:11:15by a bus on the way to

01:11:15get the computer, I

01:11:16never actually get the

01:11:17computer, so it's

01:11:18better to have it in the

01:11:20here and now, especially

01:11:20of course if I'm using

01:11:21the computer to make

01:11:22money, then it's well

01:11:23worth it from that

01:11:24standpoint because I'll

01:11:25make more than the

01:11:26interest rate price of

01:11:27getting the computer

01:11:28now, and the same way

01:11:29you could save up for

01:11:3025 years to buy a

01:11:31house or you can get a

01:11:3225-year mortgage, in

01:11:33which case you get the

01:11:35house for 25 years and

01:11:36you don't have to rent

01:11:37some other place, so

01:11:38I just, if that's

01:11:39okay, so the future

01:11:40value of money is

01:11:42basically interest

01:11:43rates, which is that

01:11:44money is worth more

01:11:44now than it is down

01:11:46the road, so, or

01:11:47assets, does that

01:11:48make sense?

01:11:49Yep, no, no, for

01:11:50sure, and so, right, and

01:11:51I come from a finance

01:11:52background, so right, so

01:11:54and I know you

01:11:54understand it, I guess,

01:11:55in the audience, I

01:11:56hope everyone

01:11:56understands it, and

01:11:57similarly, the value of

01:11:58any asset today is a

01:12:00discount of all the

01:12:01future cash flows, and

01:12:02I don't want to get

01:12:03technical, but the

01:12:04point is all the future

01:12:05value you're going to

01:12:06get, you move it

01:12:07through time using these

01:12:09formulas to the

01:12:09present, so all this

01:12:10to say, to bring me to

01:12:11my main point, if a

01:12:15cessation of

01:12:15consciousness is kind

01:12:17of the inevitability

01:12:18where your

01:12:19consciousness, my

01:12:20consciousness, it all

01:12:20goes down to zero,

01:12:21you know, complete

01:12:22nothingness, like that

01:12:23no matter what path,

01:12:24no matter what fork in

01:12:25the road, we all go to

01:12:26nothing, which is to

01:12:27say the future value is

01:12:29zero, right, because I

01:12:30mean, nothing is zero,

01:12:31so the future value,

01:12:33hang on, hang on,

01:12:33oh yeah, I just want to

01:12:35make sure I understand

01:12:35what you mean, the

01:12:36future value is zero,

01:12:39and that's, I mean, the

01:12:40future value of

01:12:41consciousness for us

01:12:42subjectively is zero,

01:12:43because when the lights

01:12:44go out, there's just

01:12:45nothing there.

01:12:47Yes, yes, us

01:12:48subjectively, sure, and

01:12:49then the fact that if

01:12:50we're any being, you

01:12:51know, right, I mean,

01:12:52death is for everyone,

01:12:54I mean, maybe we just

01:12:54kick the can down the

01:12:55road, right, but

01:12:56eventually it

01:12:56converges to zero, the

01:12:57cessation of

01:12:58consciousness, and so if

01:13:01the terminal endpoint is

01:13:02zero, then if this

01:13:04future value, present

01:13:06value relationship can

01:13:07be applied in this

01:13:07context, then would

01:13:09that not mean that the

01:13:09present value is also

01:13:11zero, hence the

01:13:12concept of choice

01:13:13becomes kind of, you

01:13:14know, meaningless, just

01:13:16that, you know, it's

01:13:17short-sighted, because in

01:13:18the long game, it

01:13:19doesn't matter, now I

01:13:19get it, that we don't

01:13:21exist then, so who

01:13:22cares, but, you know,

01:13:24the question is, is it

01:13:25rational to prioritize

01:13:26my present moment

01:13:29sensation, knowing that

01:13:30the end of the story is

01:13:31going to be identical,

01:13:32no matter what fork in

01:13:34the road, the end of

01:13:34the story will end

01:13:35exactly the same

01:13:36way, and so, yeah,

01:13:38it's a good question.

01:13:40I have sort of three

01:13:41thoughts that pop into

01:13:42my mind, I'm not going

01:13:43to say this is

01:13:44definitive.

01:13:45Now, the first, of

01:13:45course, is that the

01:13:47fact that something

01:13:48ends doesn't mean that

01:13:49the enjoyment of it is

01:13:51meaningless.

01:13:51You go to a concert,

01:13:52your favorite band, they

01:13:53play for two hours, and

01:13:55then you've got to fight

01:13:55traffic to get out, or

01:13:56take a bus full of

01:13:57rowdy people to get

01:13:59home, so the concert is

01:14:00over, but you still

01:14:01enjoy the concert.

01:14:03Sex, you know, lasts

01:14:05for, you know, three to

01:14:06four days if you're

01:14:07staying, and three to

01:14:08four minutes if you're

01:14:09not, and it's over, but

01:14:12it doesn't mean that you

01:14:13don't want to have sex or

01:14:14a great meal.

01:14:15You finish, and it

01:14:17doesn't mean that you

01:14:17didn't enjoy the meal, so

01:14:18that kind of stuff, right?

01:14:19So the fact that things

01:14:20end doesn't mean that the

01:14:22process has no value.

01:14:25Like, nobody goes to a

01:14:26concert, and nobody says,

01:14:27well, I don't want to go

01:14:28to a, let's say you get

01:14:29free tickets to your

01:14:30favorite band.

01:14:31Nobody says, well, I

01:14:32don't want to go because

01:14:33the concert's just going

01:14:34to end, and it's like,

01:14:36yes, I mean, people who

01:14:39love are going to lose,

01:14:40right?

01:14:40I mean, I love my wife,

01:14:41she loves me, and one of

01:14:43us is more likely, it's

01:14:44likely to die, probably

01:14:45me, before the other.

01:14:47Does that mean we

01:14:47shouldn't enjoy each

01:14:48other's company?

01:14:49No, because it's going

01:14:49to end.

01:14:50We should enjoy it even

01:14:52more.

01:14:52If it's a 14-hour Bruce

01:14:53Springsteen concert, where

01:14:55he writes his voice before

01:14:57recording We Are the

01:14:58World, he might not be

01:15:00so enjoyable.

01:15:01So, the fact that

01:15:02something ends doesn't

01:15:02mean that the process is

01:15:04not fun.

01:15:05That's number one.

01:15:06Number two is, if you

01:15:08look at yourself as a

01:15:10collection of genes, well,

01:15:11you have kids, and your

01:15:12genes continue.

01:15:13And, you know, slightly

01:15:14altered, of course, mixed

01:15:15in with somebody else's

01:15:16genes, but hopefully

01:15:17that's somebody who you

01:15:18have some compatibility

01:15:19with, which also includes

01:15:20genetic compatibility.

01:15:22So, you do live on if we

01:15:25count ourselves not just as

01:15:26consciousness, but as a

01:15:27transmitter of genetics, we

01:15:29do live on in our children

01:15:30genetically.

01:15:32That's number two.

01:15:33And number three, combined

01:15:34with two, but also separate

01:15:35from it, if necessary, I

01:15:37hope that my work will last

01:15:39the test of time.

01:15:41I know that we were just

01:15:42talking about Shakespeare and

01:15:43Charles Dickens and so on

01:15:44earlier.

01:15:45We still enjoy the fruits of

01:15:47their consciousness, even

01:15:48though they are long gone.

01:15:49So, in a sense, you do live

01:15:50on in that the products of

01:15:51your consciousness, either the

01:15:52products of your genes or the

01:15:54products of your consciousness,

01:15:54consciousness, outlast you, and

01:15:56sometimes it can be a

01:15:58combination of the two

01:15:58because, you know, my

01:16:00daughter has half of my

01:16:02genes and she also has a

01:16:04number of thoughts that I

01:16:05have taught her or we have

01:16:06conversed with, and she's

01:16:08also taught me over the

01:16:09years, so it's kind of a

01:16:10intermingling.

01:16:11So, I don't think that the

01:16:13future value goes to zero

01:16:14because even if it does, it

01:16:16doesn't mean that we don't

01:16:17enjoy the present and we also

01:16:18get to live on in our genes

01:16:19and we also get to live on in

01:16:21our thoughts as we put them

01:16:23down, even if we never write

01:16:24anything down, but only talk

01:16:25to our kids, we still adjust it

01:16:27the way that they think based

01:16:28upon our conversation and so

01:16:29live on.

01:16:31Does that make sense?

01:16:32I'm not saying it's a final

01:16:33answer, but that would be my

01:16:34sort of first three.

01:16:35Sure, sure.

01:16:35Well, and I have three

01:16:36responses, but I'll defer to

01:16:38you because I know that you're

01:16:39probably hungry, so I'm going

01:16:40to defer to you whenever you

01:16:41want to close this.

01:16:43Yeah, go for it.

01:16:44Well, okay, the first one, so

01:16:45sure, experiences are

01:16:47enjoyable, but then I ask, well,

01:16:49that great meal that you had

01:16:51last year or let's say the

01:16:52great intimate moment of

01:16:53intimacy, how much value do

01:16:55you get from that today?

01:16:56Well, basically zero because

01:16:57when you really want it, when

01:16:58you're really hungry, you

01:17:00know, whether for food or

01:17:01other pleasure, you could care

01:17:02less that you enjoyed it, you

01:17:04know, last month, last year.

01:17:05No, no, you do care.

01:17:07Hang on.

01:17:07No, you do care because if I

01:17:09didn't have any meals last

01:17:10year, I'd be dead.

01:17:11So part of the plus of having

01:17:13meals last year is I got to

01:17:14continue to exist so that I can

01:17:15enjoy meals this year.

01:17:17Sure, all right.

01:17:18Hang on.

01:17:19If nobody ever had sex, we

01:17:20wouldn't even be here to

01:17:21experience pleasure or not.

01:17:23So the fact that things, the

01:17:24pleasure doesn't last forever,

01:17:26in a way, it kind of does

01:17:27because if you don't eat, even

01:17:28whether it's a good meal or a

01:17:29bad meal, if you don't eat, you

01:17:30don't get to enjoy future

01:17:32meals.

01:17:32And if you don't have sex, then

01:17:33you don't get the aforementioned

01:17:35continuation of genetics and

01:17:36mimetics that characterize a

01:17:38fairly close part of

01:17:39immortality.

01:17:40Sorry, go ahead.

01:17:41Oh, sure.

01:17:42Well, right.

01:17:42So then that brings to the

01:17:43second point.

01:17:44To what extent?

01:17:45Because, right, okay, my genes can

01:17:46live on and maybe, you know,

01:17:47imagine I have a Genghis Khan,

01:17:49you know, a thousand, a

01:17:50thousand ancestors, whatever.

01:17:51I guess I'm eternal or my

01:17:53ideas.

01:17:53My ideas are so profound.

01:17:55They're in the books.

01:17:55You know, everyone's thinking

01:17:56about it and all the future

01:17:57generations and so forth.

01:17:59But then, you know, from my

01:18:00subjectivity of nothingness,

01:18:02there's no, I cannot appreciate

01:18:04the fact that I have ancestors

01:18:06and descendants or versus the

01:18:08person has zero impact on the

01:18:10world.

01:18:10Both are equally in a state of

01:18:13nothingness.

01:18:13And hence, in that state, if we

01:18:15zoom into that, it really makes

01:18:17no difference from that point of

01:18:19observation.

01:18:19Now, the genes may propagate, but

01:18:21there's no, like, my consciousness,

01:18:23I mean, unless it's some mystical

01:18:24thing, isn't really, like, aware in

01:18:27the genes of my descendants still

01:18:29kind of checking things out, like,

01:18:31oh, cool, like, the world's going

01:18:32on and this is cool, like, people

01:18:34like my ideas, right?

01:18:35Let me ask you this.

01:18:35How many of the words that you

01:18:36used in that speech did you invent

01:18:38yourself?

01:18:39Uh, none of them.

01:18:40None.

01:18:41And listen, I've tried to invent some

01:18:42words, dicknapped and, uh, bullshit

01:18:45non-apologies, the, uh, so, so

01:18:48I've tried to, and they don't, you

01:18:50know, it's really tough to, to get

01:18:51them to take, right?

01:18:52So the words that you and I are

01:18:54using were all created by our

01:18:56ancestors.

01:18:57And so the consciousness that they

01:18:59applied into the creation of the

01:19:01wonderfully complex English language

01:19:03is what we are using to

01:19:05communicate.

01:19:06So shards of their consciousness are

01:19:08arising from our throats and being

01:19:09shaped by our tongues and lips every

01:19:11time we talk.

01:19:13So they are living on, even in the

01:19:14conversation that we talk about,

01:19:17their consciousness, like,

01:19:18consciousness ends.

01:19:18It's like, but the, the very words

01:19:20that we use to describe consciousness

01:19:21as ending are a continuation of

01:19:24consciousness from our ancestors who

01:19:25developed this lovely language.

01:19:28Are, are, and that's, I completely

01:19:30agree with that.

01:19:30Are, are ancestors currently delighting

01:19:33in, in their words propagating or do

01:19:35they have no awareness whatsoever that

01:19:37this is even occurring?

01:19:38Oh, they have no awareness whatsoever

01:19:40that this is even happening for

01:19:41sure.

01:19:42But nonetheless, they, their thoughts

01:19:43and their consciousness does live on

01:19:45in the language that we use to

01:19:47describe these concepts.

01:19:48Yeah.

01:19:49And I guess it's tricky because

01:19:50there's, there's like true and

01:19:51false, right?

01:19:52There's evidence, all this stuff.

01:19:53But when we're talking about if we

01:19:54should care, what matters, I guess

01:19:56it becomes a little more esoteric.

01:19:58Cause in this case, what I'm trying

01:19:59to get to is like, why should that

01:20:00matter?

01:20:01Like it sounds like it should matter

01:20:03that these shards of consciousness in

01:20:06language exist.

01:20:07And that is so meaningful and

01:20:08beautiful, but like a why other than

01:20:10personal taste or, you know, aesthetic

01:20:12satisfaction in the moment, like what

01:20:14gives that actual grounding to matter

01:20:16is something worthwhile.

01:20:17But you can't say that language doesn't

01:20:19matter while using language to discuss

01:20:21something that matters to you.

01:20:23Uh, yeah, I don't, language matters

01:20:26right now.

01:20:27I can communicate with it, but I guess

01:20:28why does it matter for me to be an

01:20:30agent of creating future language?

01:20:33Well, you're propagating thoughts.

01:20:34I'm propagating thoughts using

01:20:37existing language, but you yourself

01:20:40are having a debate, which you enjoy

01:20:42and it's a great debate.

01:20:43I appreciate it.

01:20:44You're having a debate that you enjoy

01:20:45using language inherited from our

01:20:47ancestors.

01:20:47Now they themselves cannot watch this

01:20:49debate.

01:20:49They're dead and gone, but we are using

01:20:52the sounds that they generated and

01:20:56wrote down and communicated to us.

01:20:58in various ways.

01:21:00And so there's this continuation of

01:21:02consciousness from the past to the

01:21:04present.

01:21:05And you say, well, why does that matter?

01:21:06Well, it allows us to have these

01:21:08conversations.

01:21:08If you and I had to invent language

01:21:10from scratch, we'd never, ever be able

01:21:12to have a conversation.

01:21:13It'd be like the guys who tried to get,

01:21:14to try to make Esperanto a thing, right?

01:21:16Doesn't, doesn't really work.

01:21:18So the fact that we're able to have

01:21:19this conversation is because the

01:21:22thoughts of our ancestors live on long

01:21:25after them and pave the way for us to

01:21:27be able to have these kinds of lovely

01:21:28exchanges.

01:21:30Yeah.

01:21:30And then by the way, I'll take off my

01:21:32skeptic hat in the sense that I agree.

01:21:34I think this is beautiful.

01:21:35I share that this is a good thing that's

01:21:37happening here.

01:21:39And of course, I mean, look, for reveal,

01:21:41right, I'm a Catholic.

01:21:43So for me, of course, I'd say that it's

01:21:45because we aim towards, you know, truth,

01:21:47goodness and beauty itself and kind of

01:21:49that.

01:21:49And so that's kind of the ultimate ends

01:21:51to like why this conversation is

01:21:53meaningful and so forth.

01:21:54But I'm just trying to remove my

01:21:56assumptions and say, OK, if I truly

01:21:58operate under a paradigm where

01:21:59consciousness will cease to exist and

01:22:01there's no continuity, would I, you

01:22:04know, am I even able to make any

01:22:06meaning of that other than just

01:22:08saying, hey, it feels good right now

01:22:09in the moment.

01:22:10So that's all that matters.

01:22:12And for me, I would argue that the

01:22:15mortality that I expect to grip me in

01:22:17its icy non-existent fists at the end

01:22:19of my life is one of the things that

01:22:21drives me to create and produce as

01:22:23much as possible before I go.

01:22:26And it's sort of like if you're going

01:22:27on a long journey, you don't know

01:22:28where you're going to get food along

01:22:29the way.

01:22:30You eat as much as you can in the here

01:22:32and now because you don't know when

01:22:33your next meal might be.

01:22:34And so for me, I want to be as

01:22:35productive as possible with the short

01:22:38time that I have both to help the

01:22:41future with the gifts that I've been

01:22:43given and also and in appreciation

01:22:44for the sacrifices that those of

01:22:47our ancestors that made those

01:22:49sacrifices in the past gave us

01:22:51freedom of speech, gave us some

01:22:53free markets, gave us this amazing

01:22:55language, which we should never

01:22:57underappreciate.

01:22:58I mean, English is an exquisite

01:23:01language for communicating concepts,

01:23:04philosophy, freedom, liberty comes

01:23:06from the Greek, comes from Anglo-Saxon,

01:23:08comes from Latin, and a lot of which

01:23:11was maintained by Muslim scholars and

01:23:14in particular the Catholic Church, as

01:23:15you well know.

01:23:17So I do think that there is a great

01:23:20beauty and honor of the immortality

01:23:23that we can achieve through the deep

01:23:26rooting of our language in the most

01:23:28permanent universal and moral concepts

01:23:30that we can come up with, which is why I

01:23:32talk quite passionately about virtue and

01:23:34universality, because the deeper we go

01:23:36into truth, reason, and virtue, the longer,

01:23:40the taller our words are and the longer the

01:23:42shadows, or hopefully the light they cast

01:23:44into the future.

01:23:45And I can't think, like Aristotle, of a

01:23:47more worthy pursuit of the time that we

01:23:49have here than the promotion of virtue

01:23:52and the thwarting of evil.

01:23:54Amen.

01:23:55Well, Stephan, thank you.

01:23:56I appreciate your time and perspective.

01:23:58I do hope to come on a different time

01:24:01when you have more time, because I did

01:24:02release an argument step-by-step that I

01:24:05think is pretty convincing.

01:24:06But with your brilliant mind, I would like

01:24:09to test that by you and for you to

01:24:11challenge and expose the assumptions you

01:24:12might find disagreeable.

01:24:14So maybe at the next time, I would like

01:24:16to do that.

01:24:16But thank you for having me up here.

01:24:18I appreciate that.

01:24:18I also appreciate your kind words.

01:24:20With all humility, basically, philosophy

01:24:22speaks through me.

01:24:23And I could take very little credit for

01:24:26the production of language that I do.

01:24:28The language arises within me.

01:24:30The three categories arose within me

01:24:32spontaneously.

01:24:33And the analogies flow into my mind like

01:24:36water down the side of a thawing glacier.

01:24:39So I appreciate your kind words.

01:24:42I take very little credit for what it

01:24:43is that I do.

01:24:44I just hope that I can shape the wild

01:24:45words within me to something approximating

01:24:47truth and value to the future.

01:24:49All right.

01:24:49I'm sorry, Case.

01:24:51I am going to stop here, but I do

01:24:52appreciate everyone's time.

01:24:54Thank you so much.

01:24:54Freedomain.com slash donate to help out

01:24:56the conversation.

01:24:57Lots of love, my friends.

01:24:58I will talk to you tomorrow night at

01:25:017 p.m.

01:25:02Eastern.

01:25:03Bye.

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