- 7 months ago
Khazanah Megatrends Forum (KMF) 2025 mengupas tema “Debugging Uncertainty: Lessons from the Grasshopper and the Ant on Living with Risk”, satu cerminan terhadap dunia yang sarat dengan ketidaktentuan ekonomi, geopolitik dan teknologi.
Pengarah Urusan Khazanah Nasional Berhad, Datuk Amirul Feisal Wan Zahir, berkongsi pandangan tentang bagaimana institusi dan masyarakat perlu menyesuaikan diri, berinovasi, serta membina daya tahan dalam menghadapi risiko yang semakin kompleks.
Pengarah Urusan Khazanah Nasional Berhad, Datuk Amirul Feisal Wan Zahir, berkongsi pandangan tentang bagaimana institusi dan masyarakat perlu menyesuaikan diri, berinovasi, serta membina daya tahan dalam menghadapi risiko yang semakin kompleks.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Music
00:00In his magnum opus Leviathan, Thomas Hobbes saw managing risk as intrinsic to the human condition.
00:21Economic historian Andrea Matranga noted that farming began as a response to the fear of starvation from climate seasonality.
00:30In doing so, our ancestors sowed the seeds of modern civilisation.
00:35Risk, then, isn't something to fear.
00:38We've always lived with uncertainty, braving the grey areas of the day today.
00:43Like the ants in Aesop's fables, we endured hardship to adapt.
00:48We evolved, innovating, stabilising, thriving.
00:53These patterns they play out today.
00:56Those who embrace uncertainty evolve.
00:59Those who resist immediately fall behind.
01:03But risk isn't just about numbers.
01:07Statistician and risk communication expert David Spiegelhalter reminds us, risk is shaped by perception, emotion, and language.
01:16To navigate risk well, we must bridge cultural gaps and communicate with clarity.
01:22Effective risk-taking demands humility, not bravado.
01:25It thrives in a culture that encourages experimentation and leaders unafraid to admit uncertainty or seek collaboration.
01:32Today, our interaction with risk has never been more critical.
01:38Disruptions from AI, ageing demographics, climate change, and deglobalisation are colliding, fracturing our sense of normalcy.
01:46How we confront these forces, we fundamentally define our societies and markets.
01:51But risk isn't the enemy, it's the terrain we move through.
01:56Let's start fearing it and start debugging it.
01:58Assalamualaikum, Assalamualaikum.
02:14Assalamualaikum, Assalamualaikum, Assalamualaikum.
02:18with Khazanah Megatrans Forum 2025
02:22where it is a part of the media
02:25and also the media for this year.
02:29Okay, if we talk about
02:31about the fact that we have
02:33through the various
02:36risks that need to be done,
02:39there are a lot of things that need to be done.
02:41And one of the most important things is
02:43how the landscape global looks
02:45that is becoming complex and also
02:48the public and strategic
02:51and that is one of the things that
02:54many talk about for two days
02:57for KMF.
02:58It is important for us to be done
03:00with the theme of this year.
03:02I need to talk with someone
03:05who is the best to talk
03:07about the KMF,
03:10including the KMF
03:12and also to promote
03:14a nation that creates
03:15how it is to be done
03:17through KMF.
03:18This is also important.
03:19And today, I am with
03:21Dato' Amir Faisal Wan Zahir,
03:23Pengarah Urusan Khazanah Nasional Berhad.
03:25Dato' how are you?
03:26Alhamdulillah.
03:27Are you okay for KMF tahun ini?
03:29Yes, wonderful.
03:30All right, okay.
03:31First of all,
03:33Grasshopper and Anne,
03:36why?
03:37Maybe to start our conversation.
03:39Okay.
03:40So, Grasshopper and the Anne,
03:42again,
03:43we have some knowledge
03:47about this Aesop fable
03:49or Greek fable.
03:50Now,
03:51during the summer,
03:52the grasshopper would start singing
03:54because you hear the grasshopper singing
03:56and then during the...
03:58and then at the same time,
04:00the ant is busy toiling
04:02and storing away food
04:04during the summer.
04:05So come winter,
04:06the fable says that,
04:08you know,
04:09come winter,
04:10the grasshopper,
04:11there's no more food.
04:12Yeah.
04:13And that's why they seek help
04:14from the ant.
04:15And you know,
04:16I need some food.
04:17So that is basically a story
04:19about how,
04:20when you look at society,
04:22actually,
04:23when you actually look at human,
04:24the human truth,
04:25all civilization,
04:26when you look at human truth,
04:27you know,
04:28it's always a balance between,
04:30how do we balance between
04:32the pleasure of today
04:34and preparing for the future.
04:36Okay.
04:37So the pleasure of today
04:38is like the grasshopper.
04:39This is basically singing,
04:40etc.
04:41And preparing for the future
04:42is about the ant.
04:43So we need to balance that.
04:44So that's why we use this theme
04:45to talk about
04:46how to manage risk and uncertainty
04:48in today's world.
04:49Yeah.
04:50Debugging uncertainty.
04:51Debugging uncertainty.
04:52Yeah.
04:53So how this actually reflect
04:54the current global
04:55and also national economic climate?
04:57Okay.
04:58I mean,
04:59right now,
05:00when you actually look,
05:01actually it's not just today,
05:02but you know,
05:03what we've been seeing
05:04in the last few years.
05:05Yeah.
05:06There's been a huge amount
05:07of volatility and uncertainty.
05:08Yeah.
05:09We see geopolitics.
05:11We see supply chains being disrupted.
05:14We saw recently tariff negotiations
05:16and that really reconfigured
05:18how trade works.
05:19So the current environment
05:20is very uncertain and risky.
05:23So how then do we actually
05:25move forward when you have
05:27so much uncertainty?
05:28Yeah.
05:29And that's basically
05:30the topic for today.
05:31Yeah.
05:32Well, actually.
05:33Yeah.
05:34Throughout these two days,
05:35in what ways do you see actually
05:37the lessons, I mean,
05:38from KMF 2025
05:40and how it actually influencing
05:42how Malaysians prepare
05:44for economic volatility
05:45and also especially
05:46technological disruption?
05:48Yeah.
05:49You know,
05:50we had Professor
05:52Sir David Spiegelhalter
05:54speak this morning
05:56and he talked about uncertainty
05:58and risk.
05:59Yeah.
06:00And one of the things
06:01that I gained about that
06:02and the relevance of,
06:03I guess, Malaysia
06:04is the fact that actually
06:06what we are doing
06:07is it's impossible
06:09to know the future
06:10going forward.
06:11Yeah.
06:12So what we should be preparing
06:13for is resilience.
06:15Yeah.
06:16And we have to be,
06:18we have to have the humility
06:19to know that there's actually
06:20many things that we don't know.
06:21Mm-hmm.
06:22And also the imagination
06:24of trying to see
06:25how we can actually
06:26do our best
06:27in order to prepare
06:28for this resilience.
06:29So, Kalan,
06:30we learn from this
06:31and I think for the country,
06:33it is making sure
06:34that we're strong.
06:35We are resilient
06:37to be able to
06:38expect surprises.
06:39Yeah.
06:40We expect surprises,
06:41but you'll be ready
06:42to accept them.
06:43Now, the other thing
06:44you're talking about
06:45AI and technology,
06:46and again,
06:47there's so many changes
06:48with AI
06:49and its inflection point.
06:50And to be honest with you,
06:51we don't know
06:52how the world will look like
06:53fully as AI develops.
06:55So what do we need
06:56to as a nation?
06:57This is where we have
06:58to prepare our people
06:59to have the capacity
07:00to participate
07:01in building things,
07:02in coding,
07:03to understand platforms
07:04in terms of AI.
07:05Yeah.
07:06We have to be
07:07in the mode of preparing.
07:08And that's the message
07:09that we're getting
07:10from KMF.
07:11During Prof.
07:12I mean, he mentioned
07:13about how to change
07:14from unknown unknown
07:16to known unknown.
07:18So basically,
07:19in context of Kazana,
07:21how actually Kazana
07:23approach the challenge
07:24of especially
07:25in terms of maybe
07:26like balancing
07:27financial return
07:28with long-term
07:29nation building,
07:31especially in high-risk sectors.
07:33Okay.
07:34And you're right.
07:35I think when you,
07:36it's hard balance
07:37because we do have
07:38that dual mandate again.
07:39So,
07:40and how we do it is,
07:42we put in guardrails
07:44making sure that we're disciplined
07:47in pursuing both.
07:48So, for example,
07:50in pursuing for financial returns,
07:52we do that through
07:53our investment portfolio.
07:54Yeah.
07:55It is a set
07:56and defined portfolio
07:57with an objective
07:58for a certain amount of return.
07:59And of course,
08:00the teams have that understanding
08:02and they try to achieve
08:03those returns.
08:04Then when it comes to nation building,
08:07we put in guardrails
08:09that's why we have done an impact.
08:11Yeah.
08:12We have done an impact.
08:13We have our development assets.
08:14And these investments
08:15go through out
08:16the whole supply chain
08:17and try to support
08:19whether startups
08:20through our fund of funds
08:21which is down capital,
08:22mid-tier companies
08:23or even semiconductor sectors.
08:25Yeah.
08:26So this is what we do.
08:27and this is,
08:29I suppose,
08:31you know,
08:32you mentioned about
08:33unknown unknown.
08:34Yeah.
08:35And then
08:36known unknown.
08:37So,
08:38we're doing the second bit
08:39which is the known unknown
08:41where we're using imagination
08:42and helping to make sure
08:43that we are resilient
08:44to face
08:45the unknown unknown.
08:47Yeah.
08:48Maybe
08:49in terms of
08:51a nation that creates ANTC,
08:53maybe you can share
08:55and also explain
08:57how Kazana's framework
08:59provides a roadmap
09:00for Malaysia to thrive
09:02amid a global uncertainty.
09:04Okay.
09:05First of all,
09:06let me take a step back
09:07and explain to you
09:08why we think about
09:10this nation that creates.
09:12Yeah.
09:13And the reason why it's important
09:15is because
09:16when you actually look at
09:17most of the advanced nations,
09:18right,
09:19there's something to show for
09:21in terms of the economy.
09:23I was actually speaking
09:24to some professors
09:25in the KMF
09:27and we talked about
09:28Japan as an example.
09:29This will be a session
09:30about Japan.
09:31Yeah.
09:32And at the end of the day,
09:34you know,
09:35it's not,
09:36when they start
09:37manufacturing something,
09:39it's not really doing away
09:41with manufacturing
09:42and going straight
09:43to services,
09:44but looking at
09:45how can you go up
09:46the value chain.
09:47So, these are countries
09:48that seek to do that.
09:49They're always looking
09:50at how to do that.
09:51In fact,
09:52if you look at the US,
09:53they had been strong
09:55in manufacturing
09:56and now,
09:57they're at a stage
09:58where they do a lot
09:59of design services,
10:00but the manufacturing
10:01was outsourced
10:02to the rest of the world
10:04and now you see
10:05the current administration
10:06is trying to bring back.
10:07Trying to bring back, yeah.
10:08So, this concept
10:09of creating
10:10is absolutely necessary.
10:12And if you look at,
10:13I guess,
10:14the philosophy that we have
10:16as far as the country,
10:17you know,
10:18we want to make sure
10:20that the country,
10:21you know,
10:22starts building things,
10:23starts innovating,
10:24starts creating something
10:25which you can say
10:26is actually created
10:27and built by Malaysians.
10:29It's not really
10:30outsourced to our shores
10:31to assemble
10:32and manufacture
10:33and to be taken out.
10:34It's something
10:35that we have
10:36homegrown innovation ourselves.
10:38And that is basically,
10:39I guess,
10:40the framework that we have
10:41and we do it through
10:42Dana Impact,
10:43we try to help companies
10:45to more innovate.
10:46Our investments
10:48in the big GLCs,
10:50for example,
10:51we're telling them,
10:52look,
10:53do something
10:54because going forward,
10:55you're going to have
10:57the need for
10:58increased living wage.
10:59You're going to have
11:00more competition
11:01around the world.
11:02So, what are you doing
11:03to increase productivity
11:05and using technology
11:06and innovating
11:07and then call something Europe?
11:09Yeah.
11:10Transform from
11:12made in Malaysia
11:13to made by Malaysians.
11:15Yes.
11:16Especially when
11:17you talk about
11:18ANTC framework,
11:19especially balance,
11:21how actually
11:22ANTC framework
11:23balance innovation
11:24with inclusivity,
11:25especially like
11:27ensuring that
11:28economic progress
11:29reaches all
11:30layers of society?
11:31Actually,
11:32that's very important.
11:33That's very,
11:34very important
11:35because when
11:36we progress,
11:37we want to progress
11:38with everyone
11:39together.
11:40Yeah.
11:41And I guess
11:42within our framework,
11:43for example,
11:44we have not just
11:46trying to help companies
11:48raise the ceiling,
11:49but also raising the floor
11:51in a couple of ways.
11:53I mean,
11:54we've invested in,
11:55you know,
11:56institutions
11:57that can help
11:58build capacity
11:59and capability.
12:00We have our
12:01K-Youth program,
12:02which again seeks
12:04to have graduates
12:05to be ready
12:06for the workforce
12:07of tomorrow.
12:08We have scholarships
12:09and really looking at,
12:11skewed towards the B40
12:13so we can make sure
12:14that they will also
12:15enjoy whatever progress.
12:17And it's about
12:18building capacity.
12:19We need to,
12:20and by the way,
12:21I think,
12:22I'm not biased,
12:23even though I'm Malaysian,
12:24I'm not biased,
12:25but Malaysians are resilient
12:27and Malaysians
12:28have the raw ingredients.
12:29We just need to give
12:30the peluang,
12:31the opportunity.
12:32Yeah.
12:33Peluang itu penting sebenarnya,
12:34especially,
12:35kalau kita cakap soal sumber manusia,
12:37young generation,
12:38untuk,
12:39for the next,
12:40for our future.
12:41Datuk,
12:42actually,
12:43kalau kita bercakap juga
12:44regarding
12:45peranan kazanah juga,
12:47saya nak bawa perbincangan kita
12:48untuk tengok dari segi,
12:50especially,
12:51kazanah
12:52in catalyzing
12:54Malaysia's
12:55semiconductor ecosystem,
12:56for example.
12:57And,
12:58and how this actually
12:59align
13:00with national
13:02strategic interest,
13:03Datuk?
13:04Datuk.
13:05So,
13:06semiconductors actually quite unique
13:07sebab Malaysia ni,
13:08oleh kerana,
13:10I guess,
13:11pelaburan
13:12daripada 70-an lagi,
13:13we're part of the global supply chain
13:16for semiconductors.
13:18But,
13:19what we are finding is,
13:20you know,
13:22it's becoming
13:23more complex.
13:25we have chips getting smaller
13:28and smaller,
13:29we've got GPUs
13:30being more difficult.
13:32But,
13:33the whole system
13:34around,
13:35you know,
13:36nanochips,
13:37or even GPUs,
13:38becomes more complex.
13:39And,
13:40when we start assembling,
13:41it's not just assembling it as a whole,
13:43it basically requires a bit more technology
13:45and innovation,
13:46advanced packaging.
13:47So,
13:48as a country,
13:49we have to continue
13:50to innovate
13:51and go,
13:52you know,
13:53and basically stay,
13:54to catch up,
13:56not to catch up,
13:57but to stay relevant.
13:59Now,
14:00our,
14:01how we have been doing it is,
14:04we already have very strong players.
14:06So,
14:07we partner locals.
14:08We partner locals in terms of creating funds.
14:11So,
14:12those who are closer to the ground
14:13will be able to help
14:15some of the companies themselves
14:17in order to move up the value chain.
14:19At the same time,
14:20we also have funds and partner funds
14:22from international,
14:23bringing in companies
14:25that you may not have in our ecosystem.
14:28But,
14:29when we put them in,
14:30it basically creates a more complex ecosystem.
14:34Yeah.
14:35So,
14:36our equipment suppliers can service them,
14:37our vendor system can supply them,
14:38and before,
14:39you know,
14:40it becomes more richer,
14:41more relevant,
14:42and in a way,
14:43more complex,
14:45and it moves up the higher value chain.
14:47Of course,
14:48the design as well,
14:49we want to try to have that.
14:51Again,
14:52looking at how to manage power chips,
14:54heat management or energy management,
14:57power management is absolutely critical nowadays.
15:00Datoq,
15:02approaching 2026,
15:04maybe,
15:05what's next for Kazana?
15:07I mean,
15:08strategic focus,
15:09and also,
15:10yeah,
15:11apa lagi yang
15:13mungkin
15:14rakyat
15:15mungkin dapat lihat,
15:16especially
15:17in terms of strategy Kazana sendiri?
15:19Well,
15:20I think when we look at
15:21the
15:22the overall
15:24strategy,
15:25it's not really
15:26one year,
15:27one year, one year.
15:28It tends to be a bit more long term.
15:29And
15:30the purpose of Kazana
15:32is really to advance Malaysia,
15:34to advance a country.
15:35And
15:36if you take a step back
15:39and thinking about
15:40the future of Malaysians,
15:41in fact,
15:42that's what we're thinking about
15:43our sustainability agenda
15:44which is new,
15:45where we're talking about
15:46securing the future.
15:47I mentioned it
15:48during my welcome speech.
15:49And
15:50there's three pillars
15:51that we're looking at.
15:52One is for the country,
15:54of course,
15:55is the strong
15:56economy.
15:57And that,
15:58we try to support through
15:59our investment.
16:00So,
16:01again,
16:02we have
16:03investments domestically,
16:04looking at
16:05the
16:06dana impact,
16:07the whole ecosystem.
16:08We want to do more.
16:09We want to look at
16:10the mid-tier companies.
16:11Right.
16:12And then at the same time,
16:13we're talking about
16:14livability,
16:15having Malaysia
16:16to be a nice place
16:18to live.
16:19you know,
16:20we're still,
16:21insha'Allah,
16:23in 2026,
16:24we'll be able to open
16:25some of our buildings
16:26in the Heritage Center,
16:28Warisan KL.
16:29And then we'll see
16:30more developments,
16:31I think,
16:32in our assets,
16:33whether it's in Dezaru
16:34or,
16:35or even,
16:36you know,
16:37in Langkawi.
16:38So there's more happening there.
16:39But also to help,
16:40you know,
16:41trying to create an ecosystem
16:44where it's,
16:46you know,
16:47actually Warisan Kastler
16:48is actually a very good,
16:49a good example.
16:50And the last thing
16:51is about
16:52the community.
16:53Yeah.
16:54And here,
16:55we need to do more
16:56in terms of building capacity
16:57of the people that we have.
16:58The Sigi K Youth Program.
17:00So yeah,
17:01we want to,
17:02that is a journey
17:03that we're trying to do.
17:04And hopefully, insha'Allah,
17:05by 2026,
17:06a lot more can we see.
17:07To wrap up our discussion,
17:09especially,
17:10when you look in terms of,
17:11I mean,
17:12these two days,
17:13events,
17:14how do you see,
17:15in terms of,
17:16maybe your advice
17:17to Malaysian,
17:18especially businesses,
17:19I mean,
17:20Malaysian businesses,
17:21business leaders
17:22and investors,
17:23maybe in terms of
17:25maintaining agility
17:27and also foresight
17:29in terms of,
17:30especially during periods
17:31of economic optimism,
17:33how do you see,
17:34or your advice to them,
17:36maybe investors
17:39that are,
17:40who are planning
17:41to come into Malaysia,
17:42your advice to them.
17:44Okay.
17:45Um,
17:46I think we look back
17:47at the grasshopper
17:48and the ant.
17:49And,
17:50why I say that
17:51is because,
17:52with,
17:53with so much changes
17:54that are happening
17:55in terms of the supply chain,
17:57global economy,
17:58we really have to hunker down
18:00and make sure
18:01that we become that ant.
18:04We build resilience.
18:05we equip ourselves
18:07with knowledge,
18:08we equip ourselves
18:09with the right infrastructure.
18:11Now,
18:12businesses have to come here
18:13and they have to think
18:14and making sure
18:15they become stronger.
18:16Yeah.
18:17But at the same time,
18:18like the grasshopper
18:19sees the opportunities.
18:20Yeah.
18:21And I think the opportunity today,
18:22especially when you look
18:24at the current environment
18:25of the major forces competing,
18:28Malaysia is actually quite unique
18:32in that when you try
18:35to create a place of neutrality.
18:37Yeah.
18:38Try to create a place
18:39where you have
18:40many people coming
18:42and trading
18:43and being open
18:44to the rest of the world.
18:45InsyaAllah,
18:46we'll have a lot more opportunity
18:47for investors domestically,
18:48internationally.
18:49and somewhat duduk.
18:51Yeah.
18:52Thank you so much.
18:53Terima kasih Datuk.
18:54Tadi Datuk ada bagi hint sikit
18:55on warisan tu.
18:56Kita simpan dulu.
18:57Nanti,
18:58bila dah officially launch,
18:59nanti baru kita interview
19:00dengan Datuk.
19:01InsyaAllah.
19:02Dari semasa ke semasa.
19:03Terima kasih sekali lagi
19:04Datuk Amiral Faisal Wan Zahir,
19:07Pengarah Urusan Kazanah National Berhad,
19:09berkongsi aspirasi
19:10dan juga bagaimana beliau melihat
19:12dari segi strategik pelaburannya
19:14dan juga masa hadapan
19:15dan bagaimana kesediaan
19:17yang perlu diletakkan oleh
19:18bukan sahaja rakyat Malaysia
19:20secara teramai
19:21tapi bagaimana
19:22pemain-pemain industri,
19:24business players
19:25perlu bersedia menghadapi
19:26segala ketidaktentuan
19:28dan bagaimana perlu
19:29menglaluinya
19:31dengan perancangan-perancangan
19:33yang teliti dan sebagainya.
19:34Baik, terima kasih sekali lagi Datuk.
19:35InsyaAllah,
19:36kita akan terus bersiaran
19:37dari semasa ke semasa.
19:38Sekian sahaja perkongsian
19:39Niaga Wani
19:40sempena dengan Kazanah Mega
19:41Transforum 2035.
19:42Kita jumpa lagi.
19:48In his magnum opus Leviathan,
19:52Thomas Hobbes
19:53saw managing risk
19:54as intrinsic
19:55to the human condition.
19:57Economic historian
19:59Andrea Matranga
20:00noted that farming began
20:01as a response to the fear
20:03of starvation
20:04from climate seasonality.
20:06In doing so,
20:07our ancestors
20:08sowed the seeds
20:09of modern civilisation.
20:11Risk, then,
20:12isn't something to fear.
20:14We've always lived
20:15with uncertainty
20:16braving the grey areas
20:17of the day today.
20:19Like the ants
20:20in Aesop's fables,
20:22we endured hardship
20:23to adapt.
20:24We evolved,
20:25innovating,
20:26stabilizing,
20:27thriving.
20:28These patterns
20:30they play out today.
20:31Those who embrace
20:33uncertainty evolve.
20:34Those who resist
20:36immediately fall behind.
20:40But risk isn't just
20:41about numbers.
20:44Statistician and risk
20:45communication expert
20:46David Spiegelhalter
20:47reminds us,
20:48risk is shaped
20:49by perception,
20:50emotion,
20:51and language.
20:52To navigate risk well,
20:54we must bridge
20:55cultural gaps
20:56and communicate
20:57with clarity.
20:58Effective risk taking
20:59demands humility,
21:00not bravado.
21:01It thrives in a culture
21:03that encourages experimentation
21:05and leaders
21:06unafraid to admit
21:07uncertainty
21:08or seek collaboration.
21:09Today,
21:10our interaction
21:11with risk
21:12has never been more critical.
21:13Disruptions from AI,
21:15aging demographics,
21:17climate change,
21:18and deglobalization
21:20are colliding,
21:21fracturing our sense
21:22of normalcy.
21:23How we confront
21:24these forces
21:25will fundamentally define
21:26our societies
21:27and markets.
21:28But risk isn't the anime.
21:30It's the terrain
21:31we move through.
21:32Let's stop fearing it
21:33and start debugging it.
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