Clayton Collins on mortgage lenders' priorities

HousingWire

On today’s episode, Editor in Chief Sarah Wheeler talks with HousingWire CEO Clayton Collins about mortgage lending priorities ahead of the Mortgage Banking Summit, including the broker channel and servicing.   To learn more about Trust & Will, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Related to this episode:   ⁠Rocket Pro unveils broker-focused initiatives at RPX in Detroit | HousingWire⁠  https://www.housingwire.com/articles/rocket-pro-unvelis-new-technology-products/  ⁠NEXA Mortgage rebrands to NEXA Lending, but it’s not a pivot to retail | HousingWire⁠  https://www.housingwire.com/articles/nexa-mortgage-rebrands-to-nexa-lending-but-its-not-a-pivot-to-retail/  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠HousingWire | YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDD_3y3LvU60vac7eki-6Q  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   The HousingWire Daily podcast brings the full picture of the most compelling stories in the housing market reported across HousingWire. Each morning, listen to editor in chief Sarah Wheeler talk to leading industry voices and get a deeper look behind the scenes of the top mortgage and real estate stories. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.

Transcript

00:00Welcome, everyone. My guest today is HousingWire CEO, Clayton Collins, to talk about the state

00:05of mortgage lending after we both have spent the last week at some pretty big industry

00:10events and ahead of our own Mortgage Banking Summit. First, I want to thank our sponsor,

00:15Trust in Will, for making this episode possible.

00:24Clayton, welcome back to the podcast.

00:26Well, thanks for having me, Sarah. Actually, thanks for letting me barge into the studio.

00:30And the studio is 14 feet from my office. Sometimes I'm going to join you on these shows.

00:33But thanks for letting me in.

00:34Yeah, absolutely. You know, you and I kind of hit the road this week and got to go to some

00:39really interesting and exciting different events that lenders had. So we started out the week

00:46in Detroit at the Rocket TPO Pro Event, Pro Experience, I think it was called. Really interesting.

00:53And especially to you and I who have longtime observers of this and seeing how they've grown

00:58their wholesale channel and their whole approach. And so I think that's really interesting.

01:02So I'd love to ask you, what stood out to you about that conference?

01:05And the biggest thing that stood out was the stage they set from the very beginning.

01:10So at the welcome reception, they had Barry Sanders come and speak and talk about excellence.

01:17And I think that theme of excellence resonated throughout our 24-hour time in Detroit. The excellent

01:26high-producing mortgage brokers who joined, the excellent executives who shared pretty impressive

01:33insights and strategies. Yeah, it was just a theme of excellence. And that shined through.

01:40I really like that. I think what stood out to me is it definitely was like, we're making this

01:45experience for the brokers and treating them in a way that maybe is, you know, taking a playbook from

01:52one of their rivals there. It reminded me of what we used to see maybe and still do see with UWM or

01:58Aimfuse, where it's really like, we're focused on you. You are who we're trying to serve and really

02:04making that feel like a community. And I don't know that Rocket's always done that with their brokers.

02:09Yeah, I'd say that, you know, extends across a few events and conversations we've had this

02:15week. I feel like over the last few years, particularly in this, you know, harder interest

02:23rate environment where volume is down, and even the years that preceded that during COVID, we

02:29got casual. We showed up at conferences in t-shirts. We didn't exactly, you know, present

02:37ourselves as the financial professionals that we are. And so when I talk about excellence,

02:44I think that there's been an overarching theme this week of mortgage professionals showing up

02:51as professionals. The events we went to, people had stepped up the attire a little bit. The language,

02:59the messaging was stepped up. The focus on building excellence as professionals, whether that's

03:08technology or process or mindset and motivation, stepped up. The way we serve consumers stepped up.

03:15We saw it at Rocket. You haven't talked about the event we were at yesterday. We also saw that

03:19yesterday at Nexa. And there's a theme here as we approach this next leg of the housing cycle.

03:29A housing cycle that we've talked about is one with a theme of consolidation. There may be

03:33fewer loan originators and fewer real estate agents in the industry, but the ones that are here

03:40have survived the toughest stage of the market. They are the pros that are in this industry,

03:46cycle in, cycle out. They are the professionals. They're not the passerbys. And I feel like that

03:53that kind of cultural institution of being a pro is starting to shine through. And you're just really

04:00seeing people show up differently than they did in the last five years. That's how I feel about like

04:05this like cultural theme I'm seeing at the moment. I think that's actually a really good point. And I

04:09think about some of the people that we met that they were not the speakers on the stage. And yet these

04:12are people who, you know, they've been doing this for 20 years. They've been through all the cycles

04:17already. They're committed to this. And maybe now, you know, brokers are just getting more of their

04:23due as far as like, it's not just about retail. Like I really thought Rocket's very specific focus on

04:29this was interesting. I really loved the marketing part. So they brought on their new CMO at Rocket.

04:36His name is Jonathan Mildenhall. And I was so inspired by him because, okay, he comes from

04:41Airbnb. He has like an incredible background in marketing. And I think that, you know, he was

04:47friends with Varun. And Varun asked him, hey, you know, I want you to come do this. And his first

04:53thing was like, listen, I believe in the company, Rocket Mortgage, but I don't know that I believe in

04:58the branding. And it was a really interesting conversation they had.

05:01He was like just a perfect presenter, perfect pro. Energy was so high, but he wasn't afraid to come

05:10in with a little like one-two punch at his own organization on like the approach that they've

05:16taken in the past. Like there was a commentary in his talk on stage. It was Katie Sweeney who was

05:23interviewing him, right? Where he had said, there's going to be any B-list celebrities in our Super Bowl

05:30commercials this year. So there was a, we're not here to entertain. Rocket commercials in the past

05:37may have garnered some humor and a chuckle as you watched. Now we're going to focus on heart

05:45and community in the serious product that a mortgage is. And that message, you know,

05:53is certainly different than the Jason Momoa days.

05:56Yeah, no, I thought it was, that was what was so striking. They're using

06:00in all of their marketing, whether it's commercial or TV or print or whatever, like

06:04they're going to use homes that were listed on Redfin that, that actual people bought and then

06:10actual LOs who sold those homes.

06:13That's why I forgot to mention that. So a hundred percent of their marketing is going to include

06:18real loan originators. So like you're in this room, that's like pretty community focused and they

06:22run these commercials and it's got a dozen, like a, like 18, um, loan originators, like, like walking,

06:30talking, sitting with borrowers and they're real people in the room. So you see these little, like

06:34these little groups of like people seeing their colleague on the screen and on the screen and

06:39they like hoot and holler. And like, there's a, there's a little, um, very positive, like client

06:44experience in that. You know, if you're a wholesale owner and your client is the broker, um, they're doing

06:49a great job and engaging the people who drive business for them. Well, I also think like from

06:54a consumer standpoint, I mean, like we all see more than we want the, um, you know, the ads for like

06:59the pharmaceuticals, right. And it's always like a real patient and that just brings you in. Cause

07:03you're like, Oh, that's, you know, they have this condition and I don't know if it's kind of creepy,

07:08but at the same time, like the bottom, it says paid actor may or may not have actual condition.

07:12That's not the case of the, like where we're going. No, it's not. But I think what, what, um,

07:17their new CMO said was like, this is all about authenticity. And, and in the, in the past,

07:22I feel like there was sort of this, like almost, um, you know, internal, like, uh, inside baseball

07:29with, with brokers. And now it's like, we're, we're being serious about what matters to the

07:34consumer and not worried about like this, uh, internecine to internecine war. How do you say

07:40that? Anyway, inside baseball. Um, so I thought that was great. I think that carried through. So we went to,

07:46we were at Nexa, um, I'm trying to think what their, what it was called.

07:51The new name, Nexa Fest is the event.

07:53Nexa Fest. But now they're, they transitioned from Nexa mortgage to Nexa lending, huge announcement.

08:00And Mike Cordes had some work to do there to, to explain to the people sitting in the room that

08:05that did not mean they were pivoting to retail.

08:08Yeah, that was a, um, a very well executed yet, like interesting rebrand to, to watch and like,

08:17see how Mike handled it. Because the move from mortgage to lending is, is not substantial.

08:23But if you don't explain it properly, um, it could lead to confusion. Like, wait, are they like

08:29wholesale going to retail? Are they, are they like changing the whole model? Um, but I believe the

08:35point that, that Mike drove home from stage is that they're fully committed to wholesale. They're,

08:41they're doing a large percentage of, of their loans for their own warehouse line. Um, they're

08:45going to keep doing that, but they're going to keep doing wholesale. The pivot to, from mortgage to

08:51lending is meant to be more of a, uh, a cultural shift in the organization of stepping up the

08:57professionalization of the organization with a big emphasis on, on recruiting. So Mike talked a lot

09:05about the, where the industry came from and the wholesale industry and like the, the aim brokers

09:10are better is that brokers are better days where it was kind of a, um, conference. It was a very

09:16confrontational relationship between, between brokers and, and retail LLs. Now I think the broker

09:21channel recognizes that to grow the pie, like to truly have channel growth, you need to be able to

09:30recruit people from retail over to the wholesale side of the industry. And if you want to do that

09:35effectively, a 100% confrontational relationship is, is not the path to, to channel growth. And I,

09:44I think I'd argue that, you know, when a player gets as large as, as Nexa has the, like, I think Mike

09:49said there are 3,300 brokers in the organization. Now you have to start thinking about growing the

09:54pie, not just your slice of the pie. And this seems to be a, um, this seems to be one of those,

10:00those, those moments and in the history of that organization where they're, they're taking a shift

10:05away from battlefield mentality to grow the pie mentality, which is, is probably good for the,

10:11the people there that the clients, the, the organizational culture as a whole.

10:15Well, and he's like the poster boy. He even said, he's like, listen, nobody was more of a pit bull

10:20than me for saying brokers are better and like sticking in their face and being super aggressive.

10:25And he was like, this is, this is Nexa growing up. And this is me growing up. And I thought that

10:30was really interesting because to your point earlier, like we're seeing this growth of like

10:34professionalism and like, if, if you want to, what, what got you here is not going to get you there.

10:39And, and that's the point he made is that, that, um, you know, brokers are better. And,

10:45and the whole brawl mentality was very necessary at the time. And it brought people over who really

10:51liked that. He's like, but all those people are now over. So if you want to get the next round of

10:55people, that's not the message that's going to get them because it just, it's a very adversarial

11:00message and it really denigrates what they do. And so I thought it was a great way for him to go on

11:06stage and be like, listen, I'm taking, I'm doing this personally. He even was, um, trying not to

11:12kiss, I believe, which apparently is a difficulty for, uh, another speaker, um, you know, dropped a

11:20bomb from the stage and, uh, their new, um, uh, is it Jerry, the chief strategy officer, is that her title?

11:25I think so. Um, uh, cut it out from the audience and said, no more of that. It's a new, it's a new

11:30moment. Um, but I think it's unique. We don't usually have these conversations, Sarah, and just talk

11:35about like the culture of mortgage lending. I think we're, we're at a moment where the culture

11:40of mortgage lending, um, the people, how they act, how they carry themselves, um, how they interact

11:48with the consumer. Like we're at a moment where we're seeing positive change in the culture of

11:52mortgage lending. I think it's something we're talking about and a pretty exciting moment for me.

11:55I do too. And I also think, you know, it, like you said, it's the growth. I mean, in both of these

11:59cases, it's growth and it's like, okay, you're no longer the opposition party. You're, you're like,

12:04you're it, you're the big show. So like you got to now maybe operate a different way. I think it

12:09was well received yesterday too. And I, you know, uh, the rocket event was, um, very well attended

12:14and we got to talk to people who really felt supported. So it feels like these changes are

12:18positive. Okay. We have so much news. How many, how many breaking news things did my, uh, did my

12:25newsroom send out on Wednesday? Was it? I think it was four, not to the whole audience. There's some real

12:30estate brokers, some lender stuff, but it like, like mercy, there's some important stuff that

12:34impacts the whole industry. One of the, one of the big ones is the, the announcement that

12:38came out of, out of FICO and their new program to work directly with lenders. Um, you know,

12:45which I think initially, uh, had some confusion in the industry. Like how is this going to impact

12:50everybody? And there's still some, some uncertainty and some mixed messages from, um, from lenders

12:55about their, their reaction to this new program. But no matter if you think it's a smart idea or not

13:01a smart idea or the way the program was, was meant to be designed or what the trade organizations or

13:07lenders or bill Pulte, um, asked for, it's going to have an impact. And that, that's what I think is,

13:15is, is fascinating on this one. So Sarah, can you like give us a quick hit on like how the,

13:20uh, what we've covered and how the program is supposed to work? Yeah. So, you know, the original

13:25was just like, Hey, here's what it is. And then we got some quick reaction. Um, so there's, there's

13:30now a way to basically that our headline was, you know, FICO is offering a way to bypass the credit

13:35bureaus, basically with, uh, uh, going straight to the consumer. I mean, it's, so the credit bureaus are

13:42so important, right? Like there's still the provider of data, but we have this, this old world where

13:48credit's controlled by the credit bureaus and resellers, we have this, this new world that's

13:54a little bit more focused on direct source APIs. And like, we've seen that like direct, direct source

14:00API, um, business expansion happen in verification of employment, verification of assets. Like as we

14:07move to a world where like direct source, um, is the, is the preferred path because technology

14:14technology in terms of LOS underwriting and, and now we're at how AI improves processes. Like

14:21this, this, this makes complete sense. Um, yet what has had me like just reading and talking

14:29to people is the response from the, um, the trade organizations. So like, I feel that like NBA's

14:36message like that, that Bob shared was kind of like, Hey, let's, let's, let's see, let's see

14:41how this plays out. Um, uh, CHLA had like a, a similar message that felt like, all right,

14:48like, I mean, I'll, I won't put words in their mouth. I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll share exactly

14:52what they said. So, um, uh, scroll onto this and our, our, our housing wire article here.

14:58Where's Broke Smith. So Bob Broke Smith said that, um, it remains to be seen if this will result

15:06in materially lower cost. NBA will monitor the implementation of this new program while continuing

15:10to call for reforms that support a better credit reporting system that promotes more competition,

15:16efficiency, and lower costs for consumers. Broke Smith said in a statement, um, our article,

15:21um, that, uh, who was the author on this, um, that Flavia wrote goes on to share a perspective

15:28from the CHLA. Um, CLHA said it is concerned that in a head to head matchup there, Isaac might

15:34ultimately squeeze out vantage score and the credit bureau model altogether. Um, I am excited

15:40that we have speakers from both of these organizations on stage at the mortgage banking

15:45summit next week, because I don't know if I, maybe they have more context than I have. I don't

15:50know if I entirely agree with, with, um, these statements, like particularly the CHLA one. And

15:56I'm, I'd love to talk to Scott and Taylor and like that, that team about this, because, um, I think that

16:02in a world where you shift from the, the old world model of credit bureaus and resellers to a new world

16:09model of direct APIs, you actually open the box for alternative credit. And that, um, vantage score

16:18stands to be a winner in this move. And the crazy part of that is, you know, who owns vantage score

16:23Equifax, Experian and TransUnion. So like, there's this unique situation here. And I don't know if

16:28everybody watched the stock prices on these organizations last week, but there was moments

16:32where, um, fair Isaac FICO was trading up close to 25%. I think it was in a range of 17 to 25. I

16:38don't know exactly where it closed, um, on Thursday, the day after the, the announcement, the credit

16:43bureau is all traded down three, four, five, 5%, um, which I feel like represents like what this news

16:51is like this news is a win for FICO. It is a, it's, it's a battle punch for, for, uh, the credit

16:59bureaus. It's not, it's not a death blow. Um, and then there's like the rest of the vendor and

17:04technology ecosystem. So like the, the credit resellers, um, fortunately not many of the credit

17:11resellers are just credit resellers. Like the, the players in our industry have, uh, uh, a deeper,

17:16deeper product suites than that. So the credit, um, reselling part of their business is not the

17:22entire business. So yeah, this might be like a little gut punch to a revenue line or division

17:26inside of some of the businesses that sell, um, that, that sell credit reports in the old world

17:31model. Uh, but now we get to see if they can pivot to, um, you know, the alternative credit,

17:37like, and, and, and direct data feeds and, and other parts of the, the credit approval process.

17:43Um, for me, this is a signal that we're, we're crossing the chasm into a new world of more

17:50direct data, direct API and, and a world with more competition, which arguably is a good thing.

17:58So CHLA makes the point that they're, um, I'm going to use their words to be exact here.

18:05The concern that in a head to head matchup, fair Isaac, fair Isaac might ultimately squeeze

18:09out managed score and the credit bureau model altogether. I think, and I think this is the

18:14point that Bill Pulte made is that, um, competition is a, is a good thing. And, um, while ultimately

18:21it does not appear that this move by FICO by itself will substantially lower costs for all lenders,

18:27though it may lower costs substantially for some lenders, particularly lenders who do a lot more

18:33pre-approvals than they do closings and their, their attach rate or their close rates, not as high.

18:38Um, overall, it might not be that impactful on pricing and like the price per report didn't

18:42go down substantially when you look at the performance based model. Um, but that doesn't

18:46mean this is where we land in the long run. This is, this is step one. And I, I really feel like,

18:51you know, we all try to read the tea leaves of, um, director Bill Pulte's Twitter, uh, uh, post X post.

18:59Um, I feel like I'm Logan. I'm bouncing back and forth between X and Twitter, um, reading through

19:04Bill Pulte's tea leaves, but I, the tea leaves I read said, all right, thanks for making a move,

19:11but this wasn't the move we asked for in entirety. We'll see where we go.

19:16I think this is so important because obviously the reason that FICO is in the position that is,

19:20is because of the government putting their thumb on the scale for FICO for how many years now?

19:25It's not like, I mean, there's always been alternative scoring. There's always been

19:29these other, um, options, even within FICO itself, they could, they could do it. So

19:34really it's a, in my opinion, it's a government created problem. And, uh, in some ways, as far

19:40as like what they require and then what, what they're, you know, it's, it's not like there's

19:45a government mandate there, but if Fannie and Freddie are only going to take one thing that

19:48it's the same thing. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. The government did give FICO air cover to make a

19:54pretty positive business decision for, for FICO's business model. So like, that's, um,

19:59that's another element of this. Like, that's, uh, like if I'm the CEO of FICO, I'm not, I'm not

20:05unhappy right now. No, right. For sure. Um, it's an interesting one. So we don't know how it's

20:09going to play out yet. It's going to impact different lenders differently as it stands today.

20:13Um, but we're going to go deeper with lenders as well as some of the, the trade association

20:17and executives and lobbyists next week at, um, the mortgage banking summit here, here in Dallas.

20:23So, um, I'm pumped for that one. The timing couldn't be more optimal.

20:27Really? People should look at the, at the dates of our summits and be like, okay, what is going

20:32to happen the week before? Because so far that's been the housing economic summit, the AI summit,

20:37this one, it's pretty crazy. Um, I don't, I think this is really good timing. So we're going

20:41to have, I'm going to be, um, the moderator on a panel with, uh, Pete Mills from MBA and

20:45Rob Zimmer from CHLA. And the topic is like the latest on the GSEs, but really we've talked

20:51about, it was like, what's happening in Washington that lenders need to know. And even though we've

20:56met and, uh, I'm formulating questions, we also said like, listen, we might be in the green

21:01room and going, no, no, we got to talk about this because things change fast.

21:04Or a hundred percent do that. I mean, I called Brenna last night, way too late to be calling

21:07Brenna Amelie with like six ideas of things that need to be on the agenda for next

21:11week. And we're not going to change the speakers, but we are going to change the question flow

21:15to, to, to hit the topics that, um, are most important to our audience members. Cause no

21:20one's, no one's coming to these events to learn about last month's news. They're coming to

21:23learn about what's coming up the pipe. Well, and luckily we are a news organization.

21:27This is what we can do. We can pivot. And the focus of this event is always, um, when Brenna

21:32and I, and you, when we talk about how we're going to do this, it's always the focus on what

21:36is working, who is winning, what are the things people need to know to actually make their

21:40business better and go home and like make a real difference. And so we're, we're doing

21:44that with, you know, we just had the AI summit, but definitely some of that AI and tech stuff's

21:48coming through, um, with maximizing profitability and AI. I, one thing I wanted to talk to you

21:53about was servicing. So we talked about the, um, you know, the wholesale channel. The other

21:57thing that we see is just the importance of servicing right now.

22:00Can we like pause for a second on the other big breaking this week? Jay Bray named CEO of

22:07Rocket Mortgage. Like you want to talk about the importance of servicing. Um, Rocket just

22:12buys Mr. Cooper. The deal is substantially larger than initially announced and on close

22:19Jay becomes CEO of the whole part of the mortgage organization reporting to, to Varun as CEO of

22:25Rocket Companies. Like, all right. Jay's got origination chops, but he's the smartest guy in

22:31the room on servicing. And like this, if this doesn't signal something, then I don't know what does.

22:35You know, it's funny that you brought that up because it's been such a crazy week of, uh, news.

22:39I was like, Oh yeah, that was just this week that that was announced at that, at that event.

22:43I think it's still the feature article on our own page, but no, it's an, it's, it's an, it's an

22:47important one. So like we're, yeah, we're doing the executive servicing round table here at the

22:50office. Um, the day before I'm sure some of that conversation and knowledgeable leaking onto the

22:55stage at the, um, at the mortgage banking summit. Uh, but, um, yeah, it's a signal of, of,

23:02of where we're going and what people are interested in. I'm pumped for it.

23:05Boy. I, and I just think it's, um, it just shows like you and I've been in, uh, I've been watching

23:10this industry. You've, you've been watching this industry and, and, and bought this company. Like

23:14we've seen a lot of cycles. This is a really interesting one.

23:18Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, I know we're running tight on time here, Sarah. So I, there's one more thing I,

23:22I want to hit and it's, you know, it's kind of ties in the event travel we had this week with,

23:27with what we're doing next week. And it's a, it's a, something that came up in a conversation

23:30with my friend, Renee Rodriguez yesterday is, um, proximity is power. Proximity is powerful.

23:37Um, that's a message that's in support of how we take our often digital relationships from,

23:45from email and zoom to, to shaking hands. It's something that, you know, obviously I don't want

23:49this to sound self-serving supports the reason we go, we go to events. It's also the reason we go

23:54visit our clients and we go meet our colleagues and clients for, for lunch and coffee. The way

24:01people can relate to each other and talk to each other when they're face to face is entirely different

24:08than the way they relate to each other, um, through social media, through a zoom call, um,

24:15even on the phone. And, uh, I think that if I, um, you know, if I want to get up on my like

24:21CEO soapbox for a second, I'm going to, you know, sing the praises of, of proximity. Um, I'm feeling

24:26the power of proximity as we have more of our team members here at, at HWHQ. I'm feeling the power

24:33of proximity when, um, you know, I've been to, you know, two mortgage events this week, have two more

24:39events next week. Um, the relationships develop faster. The learning happens faster. The collaboration

24:44happens faster. And at housing wire, if, if we're going to win, it's going to, it's going to be

24:50through proximity. And I think there's something to learn there for our audience. Cause I want to

24:55see our audience win. I want to see the folks who invest their time and energy to learning from our,

25:00from our newsroom and their peers and our events. I want to see them win. And, um, I, uh, if I have a

25:06coaching message to our whole audience is proximity is power.

25:08I love that. Uh, that's a great thing to end on. I would just say it, um, it mirrors what our

25:14audience is finding, like what's valuable in their business is the relationship they have with their

25:18clients. And it's the relationship that's going to build everything from going on. And now, you know,

25:23we're seeing it like even within the industry, it's the relationships that are going to make the

25:27difference. So love that I'm going to be at our event and then going to NURMLA, the national reverse

25:31mortgage lenders association next week. So we're living this out and I couldn't agree with you more

25:36huge. So thank you for joining me. It's been so fun. Cheers. Thanks for having me.

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