- 11 months ago
Economist and educationist Dr Narendra Jadhav, speaking on the three-language formula debate, stated that 'teaching too many languages all at once from the beginning is certainly going to make, not multilingual experts, but it will create people with very little creativity'. He revealed that following protests against a Government Resolution to compulsorily implement the formula from grade one in Maharashtra, the Chief Minister has withdrawn the order and appointed a new committee which he is chairing.
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00:01We are in a state where language has often led to some scenarios on the streets and Sahil and I have often agreed and disagreed on the same issue that when it is about language, should you respect the language of a state and learn and can language be a tool of assertion at the same time?
00:26So I am going to begin with you, Professor Jadav. As an economist and also as an educationist, when we look at various sides of this language discussion or debate, where do you stand?
00:41Say that again, please.
00:43Where do you stand on this entire language issue? Should language be about linguistic identity as it is and should that be the dominant idea of a state as much as an individual?
00:59Well, I look at it this way. Every language represents a culture and the diversity of languages that we have is our great strength.
01:16The debate that is currently going on is about possible imposition of Hindi as a language all over.
01:26I think, you know, this is an issue which has been debated and politically it has been a very sensitive issue in the recent past and people have opposed imposition of Hindi as the third language to be taught from the first level.
01:51Here, I must tell you a little bit of background. You know, all the, if you look at all the education commissions from Kothari commission to 1986 mission to 2020 national education policy, all of them have talked about three languages for school.
02:12Three languages.
02:13Three languages. And they have said that consistently, this has been the position that this three language formula should be applied not necessarily from the first standard, but it is to be applied at various stages in a gradual manner.
02:33They have never said that this is compensatory. They have only said that this is something which is suggested. Now what has happened is in Maharashtra as of now, the three language formula is already there. Marathi, Hindi, and Marathi, English, and Hindi.
02:52But Hindi starts at the fifth level. What happened was after the national education policy came out, all states appointed their own missions to translate the national education policy for their own state.
03:11In Maharashtra, there was the doctor, the national education policy. In Maharashtra, there was a doctor, Marshall Kerr committee appointed. Dr. Marshall Kerr is a very renowned scientist. Under his chairmanship, committee was appointed. And the committee in the national education policy came in 2020. And in 2021, the committee submitted a comprehensive report. The report is fine, excepting when it comes to the language problem. In the language problem, they suggest that there is a comprehensive report.
03:33The three language formula should be applied from level 1, grade 1 to grade 12. Compulsorily, all three languages at the same time from 1st to 12th. This happened in 2021. Nobody paid any attention to it. It was never debated, never discussed.
04:03It was never whether it was never identified. It was never decided. It was never decided. But in 2025, this year, the chief minister implemented that or tried to implement that. And then hell broke loose. And all the Marathi, different people from different political parties, but mainly led by Thakres, they all went together.
04:28and there was a furor and people rejected that outright
04:33and that's why the Honorable Chief Minister of Maharashtra
04:37withdrew that and appointed a new committee.
04:41The GR was taken back and a new committee was appointed
04:48and I'm chairing that committee.
04:50This committee is supposed to decide which language should be made compulsory
04:55and what speech.
04:56Well, it is very interesting that you are a chairman of that committee
04:59and that committee is yet to come up with the report.
05:02But the Chief Minister has already said that they will be implementing
05:06this three-language formula from Standard 1 as per the new education policy.
05:12No.
05:12He said it in my interview.
05:14No, no, no.
05:14But my question is different.
05:16That GR has been withdrawn.
05:18I understand.
05:19But after that, after your committee has been appointed,
05:22the GR has been issued, the Chief Minister has said that they have a mandate
05:28and they will be implementing this policy.
05:30But my question is not that.
05:31My question is that, very interestingly, you said possible imposition of Hindi.
05:35So, is it what?
05:37I mean, is it an issue, if you look at from the parents' point of view,
05:42from the students' point of view, that they do not want to learn three languages
05:46and burden the students from Standard 1?
05:48Or is it this imposition of Hindi?
05:51They don't mind learning English.
05:53But there is a problem of learning Hindi from Standard 1.
05:56Is that an issue?
05:57No, that is not the issue.
05:59The issue here is teaching too many languages too early in the stage.
06:05It is generally understood.
06:07If you look at all the experts, what they are saying,
06:11basically, mother tongue is the best medium of instruction.
06:14That must be there to begin with.
06:16What happens is, when multiple languages are taught,
06:20right from day one, three languages, full-fledged, developed languages,
06:25with all their grammar, their own syntax, their own traditions,
06:30you know, it becomes such a big burden on them
06:34that they don't learn any one of them, one of the languages properly.
06:39No, but Professor Rajai, this question, you know, I want to direct to you.
06:43Because there is a talk, especially in the western side of India
06:48and in the southern India as well,
06:50that ever since the BJP has come to power,
06:52they have been talking about assimilating the society.
06:54And, you know, they think that the only way they can assimilate the society
06:58by putting Hindi as a compulsory language in all the states,
07:02whereas the students from the Hindi belt, what we call,
07:06you know, they don't need to learn three languages from standard one.
07:10Whereas the students from the western side of India
07:13and the southern side of India will need to learn the three languages.
07:16Is that the reason why we are seeing the opposition from the linguistic states
07:21where the states have been formed on the basis of the language?
07:25Well, Sahil, you know, this language question in India
07:28for far too long has been debated in a very insular way,
07:31as if it's only about language.
07:34The reality is that linguistic question is linked to other identities
07:38of caste, class, region and religion.
07:41There are four other dimensions.
07:43What is causing uproar on the ground in state after state
07:47is not just about language and it's not a question of imposition.
07:50If you go back in history, during the colonial period,
07:53it was the dominant upper caste who were pro-English.
07:56They were the first one to get Western education.
07:59They were the first one to get English education under the colonial rule
08:02to become judicial and revenue officers.
08:04They developed taste in...
08:06Upper caste, basically.
08:07Upper caste, in good English goods, including good wine,
08:11some of which we are hoping to get today's cocktail.
08:14That's where the wine drinking started, with the upper caste.
08:18In 1957, look at the interesting contrast.
08:21The lower caste of India, especially the backward caste,
08:24led by Mr. Lohia in 1957, had a Hungary-Z-Hattao movement.
08:28They were opposed to English.
08:30Mulayam Singh said that burn English because English corrupts society.
08:33And he said farmer's child can never aspire to be an IAS if you have, you know, English.
08:40Cut 2,000.
08:4150 years down the lane, post-globalization.
08:43Post-globalization, today you have the dominant caste,
08:47led by the BJP and the RSS,
08:49who are talking about protection of Indian culture,
08:52who are talking about protection of Indian languages,
08:54who are talking about protection of Hindi as a national language,
08:58while the lower caste have moved on.
09:00And they want to learn English.
09:02Exactly. The Dalits in India today want exclusive English education.
09:08Andhra Pradesh government, two years back,
09:10legislated that all government schools will have mandatory English medium education.
09:16And Dalits and OBCs don't think not learning Hindi
09:19or not getting educated in a regional medium
09:23is any threat to Indian culture.
09:25Culture has its own place.
09:26But they are seeing English not as some colonial relic,
09:30but it's a new economic infrastructure in globalized.
09:33You cannot have globalized economy,
09:35then you cannot go back to Hindi.
09:38As you know, that's one caste dimension.
09:41There's also a religious dimension to this question.
09:44Tamil Nadu, when it opposes Hindi,
09:45it is not merely imposition of Hindi as a language.
09:48It is the Indo-Aryan culture that, you know,
09:52you are trying to bring through Hindi, through Sanskrit.
09:56Hindi in the heartland has, you know, old history between Hindi and Hindustani.
09:59Hindi in the Sanskritic, Devanagari and Hindustani had Urdu and Persian.
10:04So you also have a religious connotation in Tamil Nadu.
10:07So you have all these variables why people are anxious
10:10as to what will happen to other identities,
10:13other economic opportunities.
10:15Is it a question of caste and class exclusion
10:18in the name of cultural nationalism?
10:21So you mean to say, just one question about it.
10:24You mean to say that people from the southern India
10:28and the western side of, I mean, the linguistic states specifically,
10:31they are negating the idea that, you know, Hindi is,
10:36you know, taking Hindi as a language
10:38means you are sticking to the Indian culture.
10:42You know, according to you, it is not so.
10:44I mean, they want to learn English than going for Hindi.
10:47Is that, is that...
10:48No, there are two interesting things that have happened.
10:50Actually, the resistance to Hindi
10:52as spoken colloquial language is much less today even in South.
10:57People don't mind learning Hindi, you know.
10:58Everybody speaks Hindi, like state I come from.
11:01What they are worried about is imposition of Hindi,
11:05standardized literary Hindi
11:07for governmental administrative purposes.
11:10They don't mind speaking.
11:12Not at all.
11:13That's the change that has come.
11:14And my worry is...
11:15Not in the official books.
11:16Exactly.
11:17And my worry is the current government's intention
11:20will take us back 50 years
11:22because even the spoken Hindi resistance will come back.
11:26Tamil Nadu in 50s had even resistance
11:28to spoken Hindi
11:29because they thought this is a complete,
11:31you know, imposition of Indo-Aryan culture.
11:3350 years what globalization has done,
11:35one good side of globalization,
11:37it has loosened up identities
11:38where people now don't mind Hindi as a spoken.
11:41But if you go back to Mr. Home Minister,
11:43Mr. Amishar's statement,
11:45where he says, you know,
11:45in 10 years period,
11:47people will feel ashamed of speaking in English.
11:50And then you'll have to only speak Hindi,
11:52not only for spoken purpose,
11:53but also administered educational purposes,
11:55where you'll have even STEM in Hindi,
11:59that's when people will start opposing.
12:00I mean, this is a deliberate incitement
12:02of an issue that has died out
12:05since period of globalization.
12:07Okay.
12:08So, we are looking at a period
12:11where AI and translation technologies are a reality.
12:15Then, where do we stand in this language debate?
12:18Now, things have come to such a big stage,
12:25advanced stage,
12:26that translating from any language
12:29to any other language...
12:30In real time.
12:32And in real time is possible.
12:34There is somebody in Pune
12:35who has made a...
12:38There's an instrument
12:39which translates 370 languages,
12:44one from other.
12:44So, question is
12:46whether there should be
12:48an academic overload.
12:49Again, I'm looking at it
12:51only from the education point of view,
12:53not the political angle.
12:55Political angle is different angle.
12:56So, Professor Jadav,
12:57you know, that brings me to my question
12:59because
12:59do you think then
13:00the hierarchies which exist
13:02in language
13:03will actually
13:05gradually
13:06end
13:07with AI
13:08and technologies
13:10which are very, very
13:11translation friendly?
13:12I think,
13:13I do not know
13:14what will happen in future
13:15but
13:16it's very clear to me
13:19that teaching
13:19too many languages
13:21all at once
13:22from the beginning
13:23is certainly going to make
13:25not multilingual experts
13:28but it will create people
13:29with
13:30very little creativity
13:31because people,
13:32students would be lost
13:34in the grammar
13:35and the syntax
13:36and
13:37you know,
13:37all the details
13:38that go with the
13:39different languages.
13:40instead of that
13:41they should focus
13:43on fewer languages
13:44and English
13:45they're no substitute
13:46for English
13:46in my opinion
13:47because
13:47in the globalized world
13:49without English
13:50there is no future
13:51for a foreseeable
13:53period of time.
13:54We don't know
13:55what will happen
13:55in the distant future.
13:56So you think that
13:57the prediction of
13:58the home minister
13:59is not going to comment on that?
14:00No, I'm not going to comment on that.
14:01I don't want to take
14:02a political view
14:03at all
14:03but I'm not going to be ashamed
14:0510 years or 20 years
14:07from now
14:07that I speak English
14:09that I can speak English
14:11about the caste angle
14:13that Ajay was saying
14:15you know,
14:16there is
14:17a subtle dimension there
14:18I would urge you
14:19that whenever we refer
14:20to caste
14:21so-called lower caste
14:23so-called upper caste
14:25that adjective
14:26is very important
14:27second thing
14:29that I want to say
14:29is that
14:30it is the purity
14:31of language
14:32which has
14:34a caste dimension
14:35in Maharashtra
14:36for example
14:37you know,
14:37there are so many dialects
14:39as a child
14:39I would never
14:40open my mouth
14:41in the class
14:42although I was a topper
14:43all the time
14:44why?
14:45because whenever
14:46I opened my mouth
14:47everybody would start laughing
14:48because I was speaking
14:50a dialect
14:51coming from
14:52a particular region
14:53not in a purest way
14:54of
14:54what is pure
14:55and impure
14:56I learned that later
14:57no, but it is
14:58this is very interesting
14:59Professor Jadav
15:01this is very interesting
15:02Professor Jadav's
15:03autobiography
15:05written in Marathi
15:07it is very interesting
15:08anecdote
15:09in that book
15:10that his father
15:11used to insist
15:12that he should speak
15:13in English
15:14even with him
15:15he couldn't speak
15:15a word from English
15:16but he has mentioned
15:18that his father
15:18used to mention
15:19that he should speak
15:20in English
15:21and he used to
15:21make him read
15:22the sign boards
15:24of various shops
15:26which are written
15:27in English
15:28so that was
15:29the insistence
15:30of English
15:31you know
15:31that is something
15:32very interesting
15:32your father
15:33never asked you
15:34to speak in Hindi
15:34or read the Hindi
15:36sign boards
15:36whereas he
15:37insisted that
15:38you should learn
15:39English
15:39the reason being
15:41you know
15:41that English
15:42there is no substitute
15:43for that
15:44for foreseeable future
15:45A
15:45and B
15:46coming back
15:46to the purity
15:47of the caste
15:48you know
15:48it is the upper caste
15:50which is the
15:50good in Marathi
15:52one which is spoken
15:53in Pune
15:53what does that mean
15:55that means
15:55language spoken
15:57by Brahmins
15:58of Maharashtra
15:59that is the
16:00standardized language
16:01you know
16:02a slight variation
16:03of that
16:03and it indicates
16:05your caste
16:05so called
16:06so called
16:07lower caste
16:08you know
16:09so
16:09it is the purity
16:11of caste
16:12which has
16:13a purity of language
16:14that has a caste
16:15dimension
16:16but then
16:16Professor Ajay
16:17you know
16:17my question is
16:19whether this
16:19question of language
16:21is it linguistic
16:22is it cultural
16:24or it has become
16:25political
16:25or it is economical
16:26it has all this
16:28dimension Sahil
16:29that the key
16:30question is
16:31in terms of access
16:32the key question
16:33is in terms of
16:34exclusion
16:34right
16:34both
16:35it is not just caste
16:37I also talk about
16:38religious minorities
16:39Sanskritic Hindi
16:41that is being pushed
16:42look at the names
16:42that have been given
16:43to the new legal system
16:44it is a very Sanskritic
16:48you know
16:48so there is a
16:49Indo-Aryan culture
16:50which has come
16:51against Urdu
16:51and Persian
16:52and Arabic influence
16:53so there is that
16:54religious
16:54discriminatory
16:55exclusionary angle
16:56there is also the caste
16:58which is a very
16:58predominant angle
17:00and this goes
17:01not just with
17:02the linguistic question
17:03this goes with
17:04the overall shift
17:05that has come
17:05in the policy making
17:06which I will make you
17:07an interesting link
17:09with the national
17:09education policy
17:10Professor Ajay
17:11have already referred to it
17:12there from
17:13first to aid standard
17:14they have made
17:15vocational training
17:16there is certain
17:18vocationalization
17:19of education
17:20people
17:20students can drop out
17:22in 8th standard
17:2310th standard
17:2312th standard
17:24I have never seen
17:25a national document
17:26all over the world
17:27they encourage students
17:28to get educated
17:29here our national
17:30education policy
17:31is giving you
17:32multiple exit options
17:33right
17:34and then
17:35you move on
17:36this again
17:37has caste connotation
17:38that is
17:39that maybe because
17:39the education is linked
17:41with
17:41you know
17:42earning your living
17:43and you know
17:44to prepare
17:45a child
17:46to earn
17:47his or her living
17:49that is connecting
17:49it with
17:50employability
17:54exactly
17:54but that state
17:55education
17:56is a public good
17:58it's state
17:58responsibility
17:59to get
18:00citizens
18:00look at the amount
18:01China is investing
18:02in its education
18:03they are competing
18:03with China
18:04all the time
18:04but if you keep
18:06allowing students
18:07to drop out
18:08then obviously
18:09your education
18:10you know
18:10is going to be
18:11of a difference
18:12so I read
18:12linguistic question
18:14linguistic exclusion
18:15with the new
18:17educational structure
18:18which is also
18:18going
18:19pushing us
18:20somewhere towards
18:20exclusions of
18:21multiple kinds
18:22so let's try and
18:23wrap up this
18:23conversation with a
18:24question which is
18:25to both of you
18:26what is India's
18:27linguistic future
18:28please go ahead
18:29point to make
18:29you know
18:30if you look at
18:31the latest
18:32Asana report
18:33that is
18:34annual status
18:35of education
18:37report
18:38which is
18:39published by
18:40Pratham
18:40you know
18:41they have come
18:42out with this
18:42report
18:43which shows
18:43that
18:4450%
18:45students
18:47in the
18:48rural areas
18:50do not
18:51at the
18:525th grade level
18:54they cannot
18:55read
18:552nd grade
18:57level book
18:58in any
18:59language
19:00this is
19:01what will
19:02tell you
19:02that
19:02not even
19:03in their
19:03mother tongue
19:03not even
19:04in their
19:04mother tongue
19:05not even
19:06in their
19:06mother tongue
19:06not even
19:08any one of
19:09the three
19:09language
19:09this is
19:10what happens
19:11if we
19:12impose
19:12too many
19:13languages
19:14to begin
19:14with
19:14and that
19:15kind of
19:16academic
19:16it can
19:17create
19:18creative
19:19clutter
19:20in the
19:21minds
19:21of people
19:22which
19:22refrains
19:23from
19:24their
19:24developing
19:25their
19:25productivity
19:26and
19:27their
19:27creativity
19:27I think
19:28we have
19:29to be
19:29very
19:30careful
19:30about
19:31it
19:31I think
19:32Narendra
19:32Jadav
19:32is already
19:33telling his
19:34report
19:34he is
19:35already
19:35saying
19:36that
19:36I have
19:36said
19:37that
19:37before
19:37but
19:38it is
19:39not
19:39clear
19:40from
19:40which
19:40level
19:41which
19:41language
19:42would
19:42become
19:42compulsory
19:43and for
19:43that
19:43we are
19:44going to
19:44take
19:44feedback
19:45from
19:45all
19:46stakeholders
19:47in
19:47Maharashtra
19:47okay
19:48just
19:48thirty
19:48seconds
19:49to
19:49you
19:49what
19:49is
19:49India's
19:50linguistic
19:50future
19:51then
19:51and
19:51perhaps
19:52let's
19:53you know
19:53talk about
19:55Maharashtra's
19:55linguistic
19:56future
19:56well
19:57Mayra
19:58all
19:58linguistic
19:59future
20:00is linked
20:00to
20:00question
20:00of
20:01access
20:01right
20:01if
20:02you
20:02have
20:03private
20:04schooling
20:04public
20:04schooling
20:05difference
20:05if
20:06under
20:06economic
20:07survey
20:07under
20:08last
20:08ten
20:08years
20:09one
20:09lakh
20:10government
20:10schools
20:10have
20:11closed
20:11down
20:11so
20:12the
20:12question
20:12is
20:12about
20:13access
20:13so
20:13you
20:14cannot
20:14discuss
20:15linguistic
20:15question
20:16in
20:16an
20:16insular
20:17manner
20:17only
20:18linking
20:18it
20:18to
20:18culture
20:19and
20:19Marathi
20:19people
20:20in
20:20Maharashtra
20:21when
20:21they
20:21protest
20:21for
20:22Marathi
20:22there
20:23are
20:23these
20:23questions
20:23of
20:24anxieties
20:24of
20:24exclusion
20:25which
20:25is
20:25what
20:26should
20:26be
20:26the
20:26center
20:26of
20:26the
20:27debate
20:27and
20:29those
20:29who
20:30are
20:30agitating
20:30are
20:31not
20:31against
20:32Hindi
20:32per
20:33say
20:33please
20:34note
20:34that
20:34they
20:35are
20:35not
20:36saying
20:36that
20:36instead
20:36of
20:37free
20:37language
20:37formula
20:38there
20:38should
20:38be
20:38two
20:38language
20:39formula
20:39they
20:39are
20:40saying
20:40that
20:40no
20:41imposition
20:41of
20:41Hindi
20:42from
20:42grade
20:42one
20:43that
20:43is
20:44the
20:44issue
20:44which
20:44is
20:45missed
20:45out
20:45in
20:45the
20:45bigger
20:46debate
20:46Professor
20:46Jadam and
20:47Professor
20:47Jai
20:47really
20:48appreciate
20:48your
20:48time
20:48thank you
20:49so
20:49much
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