- 3 months ago
How To Deprogram a Liberal (w Matt Van Swol) Episode 115 - 09 01 25
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00:00Hey everybody, welcome to the Vince Labor Day special. It is so good to have you with us,
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00:15first order. Coming up, I've got a great conversation ahead for you with Matt Van
00:20Swole and his wife Erin. These are two very interesting people who led a life as Democrats
00:26for the longest time. They believed what CNN was telling them, and then all of a sudden their
00:31lives got turned upside down by an awful storm in western North Carolina. And ever since they
00:37realized, wait a second, we've been lied to, and now they're proud conservatives. How that all
00:42happened, that's ahead on this edition of Vince. It's a great conversation. You're going to love it.
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02:58All right, joining me now, Matt Van Swal is a growth marketer. You can find him on X at
03:10Matt Van Swal. There's an underscore in there. Easy to find now. You can find him. And Erin Durham
03:14is also here with us, documentary filmmaker. Matt's wife, you find her on X at History Boutique. Thank
03:19you both so much for doing this today. I appreciate you. Yeah, thanks, Vince.
03:23Thank you so much. So let's, I want to just start with kind of a primer on your bio, who you are and
03:29where you came from. I know that the big traumatic experience that you had was living through the
03:34flooding in Western North Carolina and the eye-opening experience that you had going into
03:40that. Just give me a sense of who you are and how that changed your life. Let me start.
03:46Yeah. So, you know, we were pre-Hurricane Helene, you know, pre-September of last year,
03:53we were aggressive liberals, basically anything that came down the CNN pipeline, we believed,
04:00and we fought for. And when Helene hit, I'm a filmmaker. I'm with the largest agency in Los
04:08Angeles. So I reached out to my agent and said, you know, connect me with CNN, MSNBC,
04:13everyone who will listen. Some of these people I even had shows with in the past, have worked with
04:20producers. I got zero responses back. I got crickets, not even, is your family okay? And that
04:30was that kind of very quick turning point where I was like, oh, this doesn't fit the agenda. This
04:36is, it sounds like I'm bashing Biden because I'm saying, where is FEMA? Where is the national
04:41response? So they didn't have me on. They didn't even check on me. And it was Fox News and multiple
04:49incredible independent journalists and conservative journalists that reached out and had us on the air
04:56and helped us get help. And that was the moment. And in response, our liberal friends in our city got
05:03really angry at Matt and I for being on these conservative outlets, even though we were actively
05:09getting help to our city. And that was the moment where I was like, I think I'm on the wrong team.
05:16Like this doesn't, this doesn't seem right. And, and we're working our butts off through the night,
05:20getting people out of the cold, out of tents and into hotels with nonprofits and with churches. And,
05:27and we're getting demonized. Even by FEMA itself was demonizing us at the time saying,
05:32these people are, you know, full of it. And they're not, they're not telling the truth.
05:36Everything's fine. Um, and we're like, everything is not fine. So, um, that was just the,
05:43a massive turning point that luckily, uh, Matt and I got to go through together. So there wasn't a big,
05:49you know, moment in our, our relationship, we were able to just have these moments every morning,
05:55drinking coffee with our kiddos and going like, what the heck is happening? Like, why?
06:00Do you remember it? Was there, was there like a breaking moment where all of a sudden your mind just
06:04opened up? You're like, Whoa, wait a second. I've, I've been getting this thing all wrong because
06:08I think it's big. I mean, for anybody, regardless of where you're coming from,
06:11your political adherence is a strong magnetic pull. Uh, and it's, I think it would be very hard
06:17to just wake up one morning and just be like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. I've been attached to something that
06:22I didn't realize was alive for a very long time. And I need to break free from that.
06:26Was there a pivot point, like a moment where you realize this?
06:29Um, yes, sort of, you know, I, I, it's hard to impress this upon people, but probably your,
06:36your listeners or viewers would probably be hard pressed to understand this, but when you're in
06:41a media ecosystem, you tend to stay in it and it's almost impossible to break out of it unless
06:51something dramatic happens that makes you go looking for other sources. And for us and for me,
06:58that moment was getting on Twitter. So once we got on Twitter, I saw on X, sorry, uh, on X,
07:07I saw that there was very little to no media coverage about what was happening on the ground
07:14where I lived. And I saw CNN wasn't covering it. A lot of the major news outlets weren't covering it.
07:21So I was like, I guess, I guess I'm the one, I guess I'm the one that's going to bring the news out.
07:25And so I did. And it started getting millions of views on X. And even though it got millions of
07:33views on X, I assumed that the media would equate that to, this sounds like a big story. Maybe we
07:41should cover this story. Look at all the views. I mean, hundreds of millions of views on X and,
07:47and no, no media coverage at all. And I was like, so in other words, what I recognize this,
07:53what you're describing, and I've seen this happen before is that you're at the center of a major news
07:58story all of a sudden. And then you're looking at the way the, the legacy media are covering it.
08:03And you're saying, wait a second, this bears no resemblance to reality. I'm living through it.
08:07I actually know what it's like. Why are you lying to people about the circumstances? Stop that.
08:12Somebody asked me what's going on. I'm actually in the middle of it. In that experience, I've seen
08:16that happen before with things like with crime. You'll see it where lefty media people will all
08:22of a sudden start admitting, actually, Trump's right. Crime's kind of a problem. And usually at
08:25the core is they were mugged. They were attacked. They were robbed. They had some sort of personal
08:30experience with it that has altered their perception of the story that the media are telling.
08:34Yes. And that's, that's exactly what happened to us is we, we started working with nonprofits that,
08:42you know, we're delivering RVs like in the cold to people sleeping in sheds. And the media was like,
08:48FEMA's got it. Or they were like, doesn't exist. It's one or the other. Right. And you would read
08:53all these stories, like, look at all the money that Biden's given to Western North Carolina.
08:58And while I'm driving an RV to someone, I open up my phone and they're on a CNN push notification is,
09:04Biden gives another, you know, couple billion dollars to Ukraine. And I'm like, I'm driving
09:10an RV to a woman and her son in 22 degree weather that are sleeping in a shed powered by protein.
09:18Like, no, this isn't working for me. And Western North Carolina, when we would hear stories about
09:25what was going on there, you know, being off the grid, like it was as a result of the storm,
09:29it was hard to get those stories out. And my impression is that the landscape has been in many ways
09:34irreversibly altered, that the entire communities have shifted away from where they once were,
09:39and that people are living in such remote and difficult to get to places that the only way to
09:46get there was horseback. I mean, it really sounded like a completely different country. And yet the
09:52message out of Washington was that don't worry, everything's being taken care of.
09:56Yeah, I mean, it was unbelievable. We were driving around with Sean Hendricks, who we found on X.
10:03He was one of the first people in the in the region helping people, even though he didn't live
10:09here. And I remember like getting into his truck on the first day, and I could like barely climb in.
10:14And that's the kind of vehicle it took to get to these places. And this is, you know, this is
10:20generational land. These are people that are off the grid. That's why I mean, we've talked so much
10:25about the death toll being so much higher, I think, than than what's reported, even though we have no
10:31way of really identifying what it is, because these people, they have no interest in, you know,
10:36being a part of a community outside of the small one that they're in. And we went directly into these
10:43places. And they weren't getting help. And if FEMA would come, this is early in the days of FEMA,
10:50they would be disrespectful, they would try and take advantage of some of these people.
10:56There's stories of these young women getting harassed by FEMA workers. And luckily, Cameron
11:02Hamilton came in after the Trump administration jumped in, and he fired all of those people,
11:07which then became a political story of look at them firing FEMA workers when we need more on the
11:12ground. Like, no, those were corrupt people that did really bad things to our neighbors. So just
11:19all of these things started to pile up. And we realized if, if these liberal media outlets and,
11:27and the liberal politicians that we voted for, were willing to not only not help us, but throw people
11:35like Matt and I and first responders, like our friend Samson, who actually did the deliveries with us,
11:42uh, they were willing to throw them under the bus and demonize them and call them, you know, militia.
11:48Um, that, that was just, um, unconscionable to me. So was this experience, so obviously on this
11:55issue, you said, Whoa, the left is getting this completely wrong. They're lying about the circumstances.
12:00Did that become a gateway for other issues for you? Did you, did, is that when you started taking an
12:04inventory of everything that you thought you knew and you started kind of assessing, okay,
12:08what do I actually believe about this? Yeah, it was, it was definitely like a slow roll. Um,
12:15you know, it's funny. I like look back on my own tweets from like that time period where I'm like
12:20trying to rationalize why someone would vote for Trump like in that time period. And I, you know,
12:27I think the turning point for me was truly being on X and having my own assumptions challenged,
12:34uh, meeting with first responders who way more often than not were way more right wing and just,
12:42you know, we were on these road trips together and, uh, some of them would stay at our house
12:46and we'd have these fireside chats like, you know, what do you think's going on here? And, you know,
12:51we would talk about the disparities that we're seeing between the reality on the ground and, um,
12:57you know, what the media was saying. And then things just started to pile up. And so you would,
13:03you would see like, I had no idea illegal immigration was such a problem. None at all,
13:08zero clue, never heard about it before. And then all of a sudden you open up Twitter and you're like,
13:13oh my gosh, this is a serious problem. You know, and, and it was story after story after story,
13:20just like that. And you're like, what? I like, I opened up my phone even now and I'll see a story
13:26I've never seen before. And I'll go, how much of this did I miss? Like what, how much of this media
13:35bent just told me a half truth. And I'm like, yep. Experts said it must be true. CNN said it,
13:42then it was parodied on a Tik TOK video that I saw posted on Instagram. And that whole ecosystem
13:48was just there. And I was like, yeah, if everybody's saying it, that's probably accurate.
13:53Um, but it, it, the system really is designed to tell you the truth in a bent. And I would not have
14:01believed that if you had told me unless it happened on the ground to me personally.
14:07Yeah. That's a radicalizing experience.
14:09So when, when you say you were consuming the media before all of this happened, before,
14:13before hurricane Helene, um, how often were you consuming the press? Was it just casually? I was,
14:18or were you, uh, were you intense media consumers or was it just kind of in between things you would
14:23see stuff and you're like, oh, I believe that.
14:26Depends on her or me, but we used to watch CNN together every morning with coffee, uh, probably for,
14:33you know, just before work or whatever. And then I've had, you know, news outlets installed on my
14:38phone that would send me push notifications about the news and you, you'd read the headline and you
14:42go, that's not good. Or, you know, or whatever it might be. So, uh, you know, I think a casual
14:49consumer of the news can turn into a high consumption consumer of the news. If you only read the headlines.
14:56Um, and that's what most people do, including me. Um, I think you might have a different story though.
15:01Well, it's, you know, I, I feel like I consumed it, but from a, uh, a very strong place of ignorance.
15:07I didn't really understand politics. I understood that, you know, that there were echo chambers,
15:14but I thought because we got our sources from CNN, we got our sources from, um, New York times
15:22podcasts, from NPR's podcasts that we had enough variation there. And, um, and, uh, that's,
15:31that's, I think was the, the massive difference was realizing that, that these, you know, these
15:37media outlets are truly there to push an agenda. And if it doesn't fit into the agenda, it doesn't
15:42go into the news. And, um, that is, is so, as soon as we saw that it was, we need to rethink
15:51everything. But the, the issue that we're finding now is unless you have a truly traumatic experience,
15:59you don't go looking for that. And I mean, we have lost so many friends. We have like,
16:06even, even thoughtful friends who are like, help us understand what you're going through. Like,
16:10why, why aren't you? Yeah. And they're, and then they're like, you know what? We can't take it.
16:14We're out. We just, we need some space. And I'm like, I don't know how, how they say that they
16:22can't be friends with you. They can't maintain a relationship with you because of what you've
16:27learned and, and the, and the life you're now leading as a result of it. Absolutely. And these
16:32are people that, in my opinion, like, uh, you know, these are ride or die friends. These are
16:37people in my past, in our past that have been through serious traumas with us and experienced,
16:44you know, what it was like for days, not really, not knowing if Matt or I or our children were alive
16:50after Helene. And they are so willing to go, um, or they are, they're so manipulated that they think
16:57we have joined a cult. And I I've said very recently, I feel like I just got out of a cult.
17:03Like, I feel like, I feel like I can have conversations with conservatives and disagree
17:08with them. And I don't get, you know, they don't treat me poorly. They just go, I don't believe
17:14that, but you know, you do you, but it is not the same from the people of our past. And I mean,
17:21my industry in general, LA, I, I, I think there's one that still speaks to me and I haven't gotten
17:27that. So, so in the industry side, you can see one of the rationales might be professional
17:31preservation. Like you're doing that because you know that the only way you'll continue to gain
17:35access to the work you want to do is you have to share the politics. Uh, but I do wonder about like
17:40your other personal friends, what could, what could possibly motivate that attitude? What do you think
17:44that is that you would be rejected as a person just for coming to a conclusion based on the experiences
17:51that you've lived? I, yeah, I'll take this one. I, I truly think that people think they're doing
18:00something correct, right, and moral by pushing someone they view as, let's just say a bigot,
18:10let's just say a racist, let's just say someone who supports Trump, who they fit into all of those
18:17categories. I think they think it's moral to push them out so that they can kind of save their own
18:24morality, so to speak. And this is something we did not that long ago. Like Aaron's parents would
18:34come to our house and they were pretty hardcore MAGA supporters and Aaron's dad would wear a MAGA
18:41hat, um, you know, uh, left his tears tumbler. Like he would bring these things to our house
18:48and we would say, you can't have that in here. Right. And the reason for that. And my dad is like,
18:56he's a wonderful man. He's like the nicest, most thoughtful human helps anybody. Like he is like
19:03the guy that everyone I know is like, your dad is the best. I mean, he is Santa Claus, literally Santa
19:08Claus during Christmas. He is. And, and I was like crying, how dare you wear a MAGA hat in my house.
19:17And now when I see him wear a MAGA hat, I'm like, yay. Like it's, I have to daily apologize to my
19:24parents. Like I, I, and they were so kind to just, just be patient and wait and not get mad at me and
19:31not, um, tell me I'm wrong. They just, he just took the hat off and he said, you know, whatever you
19:37want, babe. And like, that should have told me right there that I was wrong, you know?
19:43All right. More ahead of my conversation with Matt and Aaron. But before that,
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22:09not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease or condition. Now, back to my conversation
22:15with Matt and Aaron.
22:16You know, it's funny. I'm listening to this and I'm almost getting emotional thinking about it
22:20because as a father, and Matt, you may share this, and just as a mother, and you may share
22:24this too, that like, you just think about like, imagine your child heading off in a direction
22:28that you know is wrong for them. You're like, oh man, I, and it seems as you're an adult,
22:32it's like, this is probably beyond salvaging. She may never come back to me. And then suddenly
22:36now the two of you are on board. I can't imagine how filled with joy your dad might be.
22:40He's so happy.
22:40You have no idea.
22:43He's so happy. And he's still very, you know, he's still very respectful of people who think
22:48differently of him. But he's been, you know, my parent, both of my parents have been the biggest
22:53advocates for Matt and I to just keep putting this out there because he's like, if you guys can
22:59change, if you, the most liberal people we knew can change and can listen to other perspectives,
23:06then there's hope.
23:08So one thing that I'm detecting from both of you is that you have a healthy marriage.
23:12So the fact that you both, the boat that you both made this change at the same time,
23:18you both kind of same came to these conclusions means that you were having these conversations.
23:22Is there, is there one person in the relationship who was more of the driving force on this? I'm just
23:27curious because I do think it's interesting that you didn't do this independently. You coincidentally
23:32decided actually, man, I got to break free.
23:36Well, we both got on X around the same time. And I do think that's probably one of the driving
23:41forces, but it was also just something we were both so engrossed in and having the conversations
23:47with first responders, you know, with, I mean, I remember us vividly going back and forth one evening
23:56before we were going to go on Fox and friends, we were like, should we just cancel? Like, I don't
24:01know if we want our friends to think we're promoting Fox news, you know, like, and we would, I mean,
24:06it was tough, you know, we did the same thing with like the blaze and like, should we talk to this
24:12right-wing reporter, you know? And we kind of rationalized it by like, you know, we might hate
24:17everything that they're for, but at least we're getting the news out about Western North Carolina.
24:22And conservatives raised a lot of money to help you, to help the people in Western North Carolina.
24:27Yes. And, you know, Elon gave us Starlink for free. Trump flew in his helicopter, dropped off
24:34Starlink then. I didn't know any of those things till much later. But I mean, that, I guess you were
24:41probably more of the driving force than me, but.
24:43Well, it started, you know, for me, it started a little bit before where, um, after October 7th,
24:50I started to see, uh, you know, and I have a ton of Jewish friends, um, you know, grew up Catholic.
24:57I understand. I just feel like they, Catholics and Jews like understand each other. And, and I was like,
25:04starting to see CNN and other, um, liberal outlets start to, um, try and humanize and try and relate
25:14to terrorists. And I was like, Whoa, wait a second. So there were moments where I was starting to bring
25:20this up to Matt and he would go and he would, you know, kind of repeat what he heard on CNN. And I
25:25would be like, does that feel right to you? That doesn't feel right. And, um, so it was moments
25:30like that, but Matt, Matt is very, very good at diving in, especially to a digital community,
25:37um, more than anybody I've ever met. And, and I think when he jumped into X, he jumped in so
25:44open-minded that he, he, he let the good people, the really strong writers on X, um, help him
25:53understand what was going on. And how much, so the two of you have three children, correct?
25:57Mm-hmm. Okay. And they all, they're all pretty young relatively all three kids.
26:02No, we have a, uh, 12, 14 and five-year-old. Okay. Well, young enough.
26:07Yeah. And, uh, so I wonder, um, what role does having kids play in this? Because I, one thing
26:14that I, I know as a dad is that, um, when my daughter was born, that I had this realization
26:21that, that playtime was over for me, that I, that my moral direction needed to be clear
26:26and that I needed to bring her to church, for instance, I needed to give her a good
26:30upbringing. So a lot of what animates my thinking now is what kind of life am I leaving to her?
26:36What is, uh, how, how does having children affect your thinking through all of this?
26:41Yeah. For, for me, when my son was born, um, I gave up alcohol and I saw that as a huge
26:47problem in my life. And so when my son was born, um, I gave up alcohol and I've been sober
26:53for going on five years for, after Helene, um, and especially once we had this kind of
27:01turning point of, you know, the things that we believe or believing is true, we only got
27:07half the story. I started to see most of the organizations on the ground were Christian
27:15organizations. And Aaron and I had both left the church a long, long time ago, uh, for a
27:21lot of reasons. Um, but the, but the organizations we saw on the ground, like Samaritan's Purse
27:26and Mercury one and Baptist on a mission and so many others, uh, started to make us think,
27:32you know, maybe there's something here. If these organizations on the ground are all Christian
27:38and FEMA is nowhere to be found, you know, maybe we should link up with some of the local
27:43churches and we end up doing that. And I think over time I started to be very, I guess, convicted
27:52that my children were not getting any sort of moral teaching outside of just Aaron and
28:00I. Um, and we were like, well, maybe we should try church. Um, you know, maybe, maybe that would
28:08be a good thing. And we kind of had this moment where our daughter said, oh, by the way, I'm
28:16actually a Christian. And we both went, what? Um, sorry, what? Um, and she had just not told
28:24us. Um, and you know, you kind of have these, there's so many moments like this, um, where
28:31you go, I think it may have been doing this all wrong. Um, and, um, for us, that was a
28:37really big one. And I just wanted to make sure that one, my children are being taught
28:42truth period, like just the truth and they can figure it out for themselves. I don't want
28:49them being pulled in one way or another, whether it's in education or politics, just want them
28:55to understand the truth. And I want them to grow up to be good people. Um, and that's, that's all
29:01I want for my kids. And I want them to, you know, have a better life than I did. And, um, you know,
29:07part of that for us was, you know, they helped us volunteer, you know, they volunteered with us,
29:12you know, they saw some of them almost daily. Yeah. Some of the worst of these stories. And I hope
29:16that sticks with them. Um, but yeah, it's unfortunately they, they've had to defend us, um, to people
29:24who are like, we saw, or we heard your parents were on Fox news and, and they did it. And, you
29:30know, luckily they, they were there, they saw the devastation. So they were like, yeah, uh, my mom
29:36was like on the phone all night, every night with like women, with babies, trying to get them into
29:41hotel rooms and out of the cold. Like, you know, they have to justify, um, that we're, that we're
29:48telling the truth. And, um, that's so not fair to them. And now I am, um, luckily we have this
29:54incredible church that we've been going to since March, you know, every Sunday without fail. And,
30:00um, you know, primarily because our daughter was like, can we start doing this? And I was like,
30:06yes, like, let's do this. And, um, and it's something, you know, we talk about God. Now we talk
30:11about, uh, our faith and it's just this incredible, um, transformation, oddly enough, another thing
30:19that seems to, uh, make our old liberal friends uncomfortable, you know, like, so it's like,
30:26now I feel like we're defending both people's right to be religious of any, you know, of any kind and,
30:32um, and their right to change their mind. So I think the kids are, you know, they've been through
30:38a lot this year. And our goal right now is just to make it as easy on them as possible while also,
30:45while also still maintaining that we need to show up and do what's right and say what's right.
30:53So a question that I get a lot, and I, and a lot, I know a lot of people have is how do I convince
31:00my liberal family member to open their eyes? That's, that's a, that's a core question that I,
31:06that lots of conservatives certainly discuss. And I wonder if you have thoughts about that,
31:11that don't include forcing people to live through a traumatic hurricane, as well as having the
31:16government fail them in the response. So is there, do you think there's a way to navigate
31:19through this and what would you recommend? For the person asking that, I would say it's probably
31:25not going to be you directly, but you can absolutely nudge someone in the right direction.
31:33And if that person like Aaron and I have enough nudges in the right direction,
31:40there might be a breakthrough. And the best thing you could possibly do is just to have the
31:46conversation. Don't demonize, maybe honestly, maybe don't even talk about politics unless they
31:53want to bring it up. But the best thing you can do is be kind to someone to be show up for them
32:01when they need you. And eventually that may, if you're lucky, open their eyes to say, maybe this
32:09person has a belief that I don't understand, but it's causing them to act in a certain way. And I like
32:16the way that they're acting. And that was it for us. It was a combination of hearing new news sources.
32:25So us looking for new information, but even more than that is the combination of seeing friends,
32:32seeing people we'd never met before and seeing how they lived their lives, how they gave up
32:39everything for months. I mean, there are people still working in Western North Carolina have been
32:43volunteering for 11 months. We're going on a year. And you just ask, you're like, what makes you do
32:50this? Why are you here? And you'll talk to them and they'll tell you, you know, they really want
32:57to. So I think the best thing you can do is just show up, be kind, and then have the conversation
33:04if the conversation arises. So in other words, the more you treat someone else like a human,
33:08the more likely it is that they'll view you as a human. 100%. Yeah. No, that seems to be. And that
33:15was the thing. I knew that people in MAGA were good people because, you know, my parents were in it,
33:21but seeing how many people were stopping on the side of the road when they would see me, you know,
33:29picking up or meeting someone, they would see, you know, a mother on the side and they would,
33:34they would stop and say, are you okay? And these are people that had Trump bumper stickers and even
33:39Trump decals on the side of their car, you know? Um, and, and I was like, huh, like the people that
33:45are out patrolling and making sure like that nobody's in need right now, they all seem to be
33:51MAGA. Um, that's interesting. Like, um, and then riding around for hours on hours with these first
33:58responders to, you know, they were the ones with the trucks to help us get these RVs.
34:03But what you're talking about, I'm thinking about this, what you're talking about is actual
34:06physical human contact. Yes. So there's a difference between maintaining a Facebook page
34:11where you express your political opinions and try and convince people. And usually you're not
34:14convincing anybody. You're speaking to an echo chamber or you're just alienating your family
34:17members. Uh, but once you're dealing with someone hands-on, you're sitting in the same car,
34:22traveling to the same scene, trying to help people recover. You begin to have these very in-person
34:27human experiences that do have an effect on your mind. It's unlike anything that you're going to
34:31find on your phone. That is so true. It is. I really wish, uh, we, we, and that's one of the
34:38reasons we joined the church. We were already talking about it before our daughter said anything was
34:43we need them to interact with human beings more, interact with people in their community. And
34:48anytime there's a charity event or, um, a parade or, you know, anything we go because I want them to
34:55have, even when they're awkward conversations, just conversations with people that are different
34:59from them. And, um, and I just think it's making them stronger humans.
35:06It's I love it. Well, it sounds like you have a great family. It's really, uh, and I, I think
35:10through all of this, my guess is that having gone through the hardship of recovery from the storm and
35:15helping your neighbors, it's actually made your kids better for it. Like in the end, uh, it ends up
35:20being this, this weird, this weird sort of bittersweet blessing that your children can learn
35:24these important lessons through this tough time. Yeah. I think they're stronger. I think the thing
35:30we need to work on now is they are very, still very much caught up in the middle of this political
35:36ideology of, um, in, in academia, they all go to, you know, really advanced schools and, and, and they,
35:44they're being taught that goodness and kindness is the liberal agenda and we're teaching them think for
35:51yourself in some ways that's true and in other ways that's wrong. So, um, it's too, it's, it's really
35:57unfair to children to put them in that situation. And, um, I'm starting to take, you know, a front row
36:05seat, a driver's seat in all of education to make sure that they're getting, they're getting education
36:12and they're not getting indoctrinated. All right. Let me, let me, uh, end with a question for Matt.
36:18Uh, Matt, I gotta say when I, when I first saw your name, Matt Vanswall, I thought to myself,
36:23that guy has to be a fitness influencer. I thought, I thought that was a stage name for
36:30some dude who spends all of his time in the gym and just films his workouts. I was like,
36:34that can't be real. So why is it that you went with growth marketer instead of fitness influencer?
36:39Oh man. Yeah. Oh man. No, definitely not a fitness influencer. I wish I had the time. I have too much to do.
36:48I did truly. I think the, the difference between people who are super buff and people who are not
36:53is truly just like hours you're willing to spend in the gym. So, you know, if you want to spend three
36:58hours in the gym, you probably will be super buff. Um, yeah. And no matter what you do,
37:03you'll always be swole. That's the guaranteed. That was like one of his campaigns in high school
37:08was like, get swole. I think I read for like class president and that was smart. I would have gone
37:12with the same tact. I love that. All right. Matt Van Swal, Aaron Durham. You're both wonderful.
37:17Congratulations on everything. And thank you very much for your time. We really appreciate you.
37:20Thank you. Appreciate it.
37:23All right. That's all for the Labor Day episode. Glad you were with us. We'll be back again
37:27tomorrow right here on VIMS.
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