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00:00Hey, welcome back to the Motorcycles Podcast. This is where we talk about motorcycles and
00:03what makes them great. Topics on this show always change, but the one thing that always remains
00:08is two wheels fun. On this episode, we are going to talk about Harley Davidson's Pan America 1250.
00:15That's a Harley Davidson adventure bike. But before we do that, we've got to make introductions.
00:20We've got Adam Waheed. He's the only healthy one on this podcast at the moment. We've got Jeff
00:26Allen. He's got 11 broken ribs and some small holes in his lungs. And you got me, executive
00:31editor, Justin Dawes, and I'm getting over COVID. So we are going to sound maybe a little
00:38bit off today, but we're going to give it our best go. So as we said, we're going to talk
00:44about Harley Davidson, Pan America 1250. This is Harley Davidson's, well, we'll call it first
00:51with quotations around first adventure bike. I guess the Buell Ulysses could be counted
00:57as Harley Davidson's first adventure bike. And we'll say early Harley Davidson's probably
01:03all were adventure bikes, depending on, you know, where you rode them, right?
01:08Mm-hmm. Totally.
01:09So, uh, but this is those old hill climbers were adventure bikes.
01:15Oh yeah. Yeah, man.
01:16With the chains on the wheels.
01:18Dude, that, the statue in front of the Harley Davidson museum with the hill climber is one
01:21of the raddest statues I've ever seen in my life.
01:24Yeah. Yeah. That old stuff was pretty cool.
01:26Yeah. It's a, it's a, since we don't have a, if you're listening, we have to describe it
01:31for you. It's a hill climber. He's going up a hill. He's got a chain on the rear tire.
01:35It's an old, you know, twenties Harley and thirties Harley. And he's like hanging off
01:40the bike. It's, he's on the edge of control. It's a really cool statue. If you ever get
01:44to the museum, you won't ever forget it for sure.
01:47You can't miss it.
01:49Can't miss it. It's beautiful. So, um, this first, uh, adventure bike comes in three variants,
01:56the special, which is the, we'll say the normal adventure motorcycle, uh, an ST, which
02:02is street focused and a CVO touring model. Um, and this is the first model to use Harley
02:09Davidson's new, uh, revolution max 1250 engine. So we'll talk a little bit about that as, as
02:15well, but let's, let's get into the details of, of the, uh, the Pan America. So I say,
02:23and I think probably both of you agree with me that this is very much a real adventure motorcycle.
02:28This isn't some half bake attempt to take something Harley Davidson already had and turn it into an
02:34adventure motorcycle. It's not like a sportster with some long suspension on it or something
02:38like that. Do you guys agree? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's real adventure bike. Yeah. The whole
02:43thing was ground up. Yeah. Ground up, ground up build, which we'll talk about here. Um, it does
02:49have some Harley Davidson styling. Uh, it is polarizing in its look. I like it. Yeah. I like that.
02:57It looks like a Harley and I like that it, it doesn't look like other adventure bikes. Yeah.
03:02Yeah. I think that's neat too. I agree. I would say that it looks much better in person than it does
03:08on a page, on a screen. When you get around it, it, the proportions make sense, but sometimes in
03:14photos, it's hard to find a good angle on the bike. Um, well, plus we had gotten used to what
03:19adventure bikes look like. Yeah. Yeah. Pointy except in, you know, that, that kind of thing. And this is,
03:27this is, uh, uh, you know, it's got that big, long, wide, or I should say wide headlight
03:32that's kind of squished down. It looks sort of like a, uh, a smaller version of a road
03:38glide, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Very much like, you know, so, um, it's got all the tech that
03:44a, uh, you would expect out of an adventure bike. You've got lean sensitive touch control
03:49and ABS got, uh, drag tour control, which is like, uh, using the, the throttle and the
03:56ignition to act as a slipper clutch. Uh, when it, when the slipper clutch doesn't work anymore
04:01because the roads are so slick or the gravel's so slick or whatever. So it keeps the rear end
04:06from locking up. It's got wheelie control. It's got combined braking. And it was the first
04:11to have adaptive ride height. It was the first bike to lower itself when you, when you stopped,
04:15which to me still like boggles my mind that, um, someone hadn't thought of it first.
04:22And they were the first, yeah. In, in the adventure category, they were like the innovators. Yeah.
04:27That's like, it just blows me up. It's like, duh, like, you know, all these bikes are, have such
04:33tall seat heights as adventure bikes. Cause you need the ground clearance, you need the suspension
04:37and this makes it, you know, easier to get it on and off of. Yeah. And there's, there's isn't
04:43just when you stop, right. It's when you get under a certain mile per hour, under a certain
04:47speed, it'll come down. Yeah. And you can, you can lock it out. You can change the parameters
04:52a little bit to how it, how it activates. Well, I'm just saying like, if you were in
04:57something, you know, tricky, you, you lowers the seat height so you can touch. Like if say
05:03for instance, you're in sand and you need to dab, you're, you're probably going slow enough
05:08that, that, that it's settled down. The seat is settled down. Yeah, very much so. And
05:13you don't, you don't notice it when it does it either. That's the interesting part is you
05:17really don't feel the change in the bike's attitude at all, which is pretty cool. So,
05:23and then once you get going again, once you crest a certain speed, I can't remember what
05:27it is, 25, 30 miles an hour or something like that. It raises back up automatically.
05:31Yeah. So really cool, uh, really cool thing. So, um, it runs kind of adventure, normal wheel
05:39sizes, 1917 on the special and the CBO and then 17 inch wheels on the ST, which is the street
05:46focused one. Uh, they just, you know, they just added to the lineup. So, um, I don't know,
05:52it's very much a real adventure motorcycle. Uh, I think it's got everything that you would
05:57want minus maybe adaptive cruise control and all the radar stuff. But I, I'm assuming that
06:04the next iteration of the bike will have all that stuff. Cause yeah. And plus it has all
06:09the, all the available accessories you would want for your adventure bikes, soft cases, hard
06:14cases, you know, skid plate, hand guards, all that stuff. It's got high seats, low seat,
06:19you know, all that stuff. So I guess now they have a, a single, uh, a one piece seat option.
06:25So, yep. So, you know, all over, all around, it's, it's a very, very much, uh, um, adventure
06:35motorcycle and it's got an all new engine in it, which is, um, the revolution max 1250. Uh,
06:42they also have revolution max nine 75, nine 75 in the nightster. Um, so the 1250 is used in,
06:51uh, uh, the Pan America and in the sportster. Um, but the little bit different tune in both the
06:57bikes, uh, in the Pan America makes 150 horsepower at 95 pound feet of torque. That's those are claim
07:05numbers from Marley Davidson. Um, it's a dual overhead liquid cooled four valves, 60 degree V twin
07:12with VVT on both the intake and exhaust cams. Um, which is, is pretty cool as well. Um,
07:21I think the sportster only gets it on the intake if I remember right, or maybe that's the nightster,
07:29maybe the nine 75 only has it on. Yeah.
07:31The motor's got all of the features you would expect on a, on a premium adventure bike.
07:37Uh, it really does. Um, and it's got some stuff that other ones don't. Um, it's got a hydraulic
07:43valve, uh, lash adjustment, just like on all their, their big, big twins and stuff. So there's
07:49no valve clearance checks there. It's always got the right, correct, correct clearance. So, um,
07:55overall, I really, really liked that engine. What about you, Heath? Do you like that engine?
08:00Uh, yeah, yeah. It's okay for sure. You know, it's nice. It's got, you know,
08:04revs kind of fast and has that signature Harley Davidson, you know, character and exhaust note,
08:10which is neat, but, you know, in a more modern liquid cooled, you know, power plant, which is
08:16cool. You know, I think Harley Davidson did an okay job of, you know, appeasing the Harley Davidson
08:22purist, but finally giving, you know, the, the modern motorcycle rider, you know, some contemporary
08:27performance. Yeah. I would say, you know, down low, it, it definitely has the, the Harley-ish,
08:32um, feel to it or sound. And then when you rev it out, it becomes, it feels very European
08:39to me. Yeah. It feels like a KTM LC for it. Um, you know, or LC eight, I should say, it just
08:47feels really, really sporty and it revs and it feels modern. It feels wholly modern when
08:54you, when you're on the gas. Yeah. Yeah. Good on Harley Davidson for having the, the
09:01huevos to make the investment for this thing. That's, that was a, that was a big, I guess
09:08you would say gamble, but you know, that they sort of had to make, but none of them for doing
09:14such a good job. Yeah. They definitely had to make, they had to modernize Harley's, uh,
09:20offerings a bit, you know, so Sportster, Pan America, Knightster, um, all those things
09:27add to that. Um, definitely not, not for the traditional Harley owner, except that they are
09:36because it was a very successful launch of that bike. It was actually the best selling
09:41adventure motorcycle for a few months when it first came out, which is saying a lot because
09:46BMW's GS is a sales machine. Like BMW doesn't even have to have a full lineup. They just had
09:55the GS. They would still do better than some other manufacturers. Yeah. So, um, that did
10:04really, really well. Um, and people, you know, people move from other, they had conquest sales,
10:12they had people that bought from outside of, um, Harley Davidson, but then they also had
10:18the Harley Davidson faithful buying the bikes too. They were like, oh man, I, I own a GS along
10:23with my road glide. Now I can have a road glide and I can have a Pan American. So it makes a
10:28lot of sense to, uh, for Harley Davidson do it because they realized that there are a lot
10:33of owners that own multiple bikes. And if they have a Harley, they may buy a Harley and other
10:39segments. Yeah. And probably looking to bring in, uh, uh, even just slightly younger buyer.
10:47Yeah. Yeah. Very much. Yeah. Or something a little more sporty, a little more utilitarian,
10:52you know? Yeah, exactly. So let's talk about like, um, riding impressions and whether we'd like it or not.
11:01Let's, let's start off with Adam. Let's, let's give, let's hear your feelings on the Pan America.
11:07Yeah. I think it's, it's, it's okay for a Harley Davidson adventure bike. You know, it's,
11:12you know, not my favorite adventure bike, but you know, for Harley Davidson's first shot at it,
11:17you know, it's an okay offering. Okay. About you, Jeff. I guess I have a little bit stronger
11:24feelings than why, you know, I'm like, what's not to like? I think it's, I think it's a really nice
11:29adventure bike. I mean, in adventure bikes are, they can be so different, right? You have touring
11:34adventure, you have like serious off-road adventure, but I think this thing, I think it does both
11:43fairly well. To me, it's, it's as, it's as if a BMW, like you're comparing it to BMW. So it's as if
11:51the BMW and the KTM, you know, got together and had a baby. In some ways it reminds me of the KTM.
11:57In some ways it reminds me of the BMW, which I don't know this, but I would think that that would
12:03be a target for Harley, you know? Yeah. I mean, that's the, that's the hard part for Harley is like,
12:08where do they position this and what do they target? So, you know, I think.
12:14I appreciate the rider aids that it has. I have, I, like I said, I like the styling as far as
12:22riding it. I like it in the, in the sitting position, standing position. It's fairly narrow
12:28and I wear, usually I wear knee braces when I ride adventure bikes. Cause you know, there's always
12:33off-road options and, uh, some bikes you really notice the width with the knee braces and, uh,
12:42less so I think on the Pan America. Yeah, I agree. Uh, it's, it's a, actually a very slim
12:47feeling bike because of that kind of traditional shaped tank. Right. And so this big boxy thing
12:55that a lot of adventure bikes have covered in plastic. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so that right
13:00there makes it feel slim. And I do the same thing. I wear knee braces most of the time when
13:05I'm riding an adventure motorcycle and, um, it definitely, that helps a lot. It's got good
13:12ergonomics. Um, it's got some options where you can get risers for the handlebars and a few other
13:17things. And so, um, but overall it's very good the way it is. Um, and I really like, it's easy to
13:26toss around. Like it's a big motorcycle. It's a big bore ADV, but, um, the handlebar width and shape
13:34and the slimness of the tank really allows you to like throw your knee into the tank and really move
13:40the bike around really easily. Um, and sometimes it feels a little bit lighter, um, that is, and it
13:47doesn't feel as massive as some of the other bikes, like a GS. Well, when it came out, it was against
13:53the GS 1250 and it felt a lot smaller than the GS 1250. Um, the, uh, the engine I think is really,
14:02really nice. Um, it puts power to the ground really well and it, that lets it slide around power,
14:07you know, power line roads and gravel roads. Like you can really slide the bike really nice as a
14:12really nice balance. Um, and being able to really control that rear tire. Um, so overall, I think it
14:19was a really good first effort and it was one of my favorite bikes when it came out in, in 2021.
14:24Um, you know, everyone's kind of moved on since 2021. So, um, you know, the, the GS 1300, R 1300 GS,
14:37Multistrada, Tiger, um, and even the KTM have all got updates since that and have upped the game a
14:43little bit. So I think it's time for, um, for Harley Davidson to respond and bring, bring the level
14:51up a little bit more on their bike. Uh, I think, um, you know, the semi-active suspension is pretty
14:57nice, but I do think it maybe needs a little more suspension travel. It's got seven and a half
15:02inches on both ends. Um, and since you have that adaptive ride height, why not just make it longer
15:08travel because you can lower the bike anyways, instead of lowering the bike an inch and a half
15:12or whatever it is, let the bike lower two and a half inches or something, you know, and, and,
15:17and give us that extra travel and ground clearance when we need it as an adventure bike. Um, and then
15:24it can still lower itself down when you need it. But overall, I think it's a, I think it's a great ADV
15:32bike. And if you're shopping for ADV bikes, you should absolutely go check one out. I think, um,
15:38it is very much a, um, an alternative to all the, all the other big adventure motorcycles that we,
15:45we talk about here. Yeah. Sure. Unique being that it's, you know, it's such a, uh, a new motorcycle,
15:52but it, it also has a huge dealer network, you know? Yep. Yeah, for sure. It doesn't do huge dealer
16:00network. And I will say like the first, um, couple of years, they did have to work out a few kinks,
16:07right? Um, they had some charging and battery issues, um, which with 2024 on is supposedly solved.
16:16Um, a lot of people just put lithium batteries in their bike and it helped the problem with like
16:21low battery voltage after it sat for a while. So like parasitic draw from all the electronics,
16:25um, made it like hard starting or screwed up the display. There's a few problems. So, um,
16:32um, but, uh, as of now, it seems all those are, are, all those are, are sorted. And so that's,
16:40that's nice. So, but, um, yeah, overall, I think it was, uh, I think it's a great, great bike,
16:48um, for what it is 20 grand for the special, they don't really have the base model anymore.
16:53Um, so starts at 20 grand, but obviously it goes up from there. If you change the buildings and
16:58it's not cheap, no, it's not cheap, not cheap, but, but it's not, um, it's not out of hand in the,
17:06the big adventure bike. No. I think, right. I remember when it, when it came out, it, it also,
17:12there was priced below, I think below the BMW and just slightly above the case.
17:17Yeah. It was kind of in the middle there. Yeah. So obviously inflation is, is driven at prices a
17:24little bit. Unaffected by tariffs. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there are, I'm sure not all the parts of
17:32that thing are American made, but, um, I knew they, I know they do use a lot of suppliers nearby,
17:37um, Milwaukee. So, um, you know, anyway, um, I have a funny story about this bike.
17:47Um, and that we actually had an effect before the bike came out on the design of this motorcycle.
17:56So, um, yeah. So in 2018, they teased this bike, they put out this video and it showed it in the
18:05prototype testing. And, and so I went frame by frame for the video and like basically pointed out,
18:12okay, the engine looks like it's, you know, this many degrees and it looks like this, and it looks
18:17like it's got this suspension, this type of wheel, this, you know, blah, blah. And I just went through
18:21and kind of like made my predictions on what, what the Pan America will be. And I, I wrote in my article
18:27that it looks heavy. Um, and that if, uh, if it came in my article, I wrote, if, if this thing weighs less
18:35than 550 pounds, I will buy all of the Harley Davidson engineering and design staff pizza and
18:41beer. And, um, so then we come around to 2021. It's the press launch. They have their PowerPoint
18:49presentation going and the screen comes up and it says dry weight for this is for the base model,
18:53not the special, but there was a base model at that time. Um, and it said 535 pounds,
19:01Dawes, you owe us pizza and beer right in the presentation, right? Yeah. And the presentation
19:08for the press launch. And so I was like, Oh geez. So we stuck to it and we bought pizza and beer for
19:15like 400 people in Milwaukee and had a pizza party. Um, I stuck, I stuck, stuck to my, my challenge and
19:22we, we, we paid up. It was, it cost us like 15 grand for pizza and beer, but, um,
19:27Do you get to throw that on the expense account? We threw an expense account. It did not come out
19:31of my own pocket, but, uh, I was dissuaded from making challenges like that in the future.
19:38We got you this time, but not next time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll cover this one,
19:42but not next time. So, but it was cool. Like they, they, they took the, the, that article
19:48and printed it out. The, the lead of the project printed it out for every engineer
19:53and went to everyone's desk and put it on their desk and they all pinned it up in their cubicle.
19:58And every one of them worked on removing weight from whatever they were working on
20:03in order to get it less than five 50 because before it was going to be more. So it was cool.
20:09We had an effect on, on, on the bike. Um, that's media doing this job.
20:15Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to improve the product. Yeah. We improved the product before it even came out.
20:19So that was a pretty, pretty fun story. And then we printed out like a little
20:24like magazine with all our articles about the bike. And yeah, it was, it was really fun. It was
20:28good to meet all the people that did it. And they were all like, yeah, thanks for doing that. You know,
20:32like one guy was telling me about like the, the gear on the back of the clutch basket for the starter.
20:38Like it was a solid piece of, of aluminum. And then he went through and like removed all this weight
20:44and made it look like, uh, you know, uh, what do you call it? Like grandma's doily for, you know,
20:50like, you know, he removed all this material and everyone did that holes in it. Yep.
20:57Added more like the world, uh, editor of dirt bike editor, Ron Greyer. He was used to say he put,
21:02he put holes in everything back in the day. He would always say, there's nothing lighter than a hole.
21:07This is true. Yeah. Add more lightness in the way of Lotus. So, um, anyway, I think, um, you know,
21:16that was, that's a fun story. So, um, having us all ridden the bike and we all seem to like it in,
21:23in some form, what would you like to see from Harley Davidson to make this bike better? Because
21:29obviously it's time for it. Let's, let's give them a challenge again. We're not going to buy him pizza
21:33and beer, but let's give them a challenge to improve the, this bike. And maybe they'll listen
21:38to us. So Jeff, what do you, what do you want to see out of the, well, I could see them expanding
21:45the lineup like they do with, you know, all of their other models, you know, different options,
21:49different, you know, accessories, uh, like for instance, a version with an 1821. So you could have,
21:58you know, additional tire choices. Um, that'd be neat. You know, that kind of, that sort of thing,
22:04maybe even like a real, uh, I don't know if stripped down is the right word, but a stripped
22:10down version that's very off-road, you know, and even like, like KTM, maybe even a, uh, uh,
22:21a version with the smaller motor with the, with the max 975, you know, sort of a mid if that,
22:29if you could say that a midsize adventure bike, you know, maybe that would be, maybe that would be
22:35the thing with the 975 and then in the 1821, you know, sort of a, that'd be cool lighter bike.
22:42Yeah. Adventure bike. Yeah. Yep. That's a really cool idea. Adam, what about you?
22:48Yeah. I think what Jeff just said is a great idea. You know, maybe a slimmed down. And I mean,
22:55it's going to be a Harley Davidson. So it was never going to be like Tenere slim,
22:59but just a slim down with another pizza party,
23:02you know, I think a slimmed down 975, you know, middleweight plus size adventure bike would be
23:09cool. That'd be a cool variation. You know, the something with it, it's going to be hard to do
23:15the 21 inch, 18 inch wheel combo with that chassis configuration, I'm sure, but that would be cool.
23:21You know, I know they're making that ST, the 17 inch variation, which is cool. You know, even like
23:28a more like not hardcore sport, like road sport, but yeah, like it did almost an adventure sport,
23:35like real precisely made adventure sport. That would be a cool variation, you know, kind of like
23:41they could go as wild as having, you know, Ducati Pikes Peak, you know, Pikes Peak, just super high
23:47end, like just road sport to the max. Like, honestly, that would be a good little niche for
23:52Harley Davidson to own that, you know, especially with like their, their, their competition,
23:58street legal competition baggers. Like they have, they have that technology. They have those
24:03components. Obviously it's in touring configuration, but you know, they'd be cool to, you know,
24:08kind of narrowing on that segment. And in theory, they could potentially own that segment.
24:13Yeah. I mean, they, they race the hooligan class with the Pan America. Right. So,
24:18excuse me. So it was a flat track, uh, uh, uh, adventure that too. But like, I really like
24:27he's idea of like an, an ST we'll call it an STR, right? Yeah. STR. Yep. Yep. Perfect.
24:32You know, and it's just done to the, to the max and it's a special model that, you know,
24:39is more expensive and has a high margin for Harley, but really ups that, that's that thing to where you
24:47would buy one and go take it to a track day and not have to change anything. I think that'd be
24:51really fun. Um, and then of course I can even go ahead. Oh, they could do it boutique, boutique
24:59style. Like they do with their, that their, that, that Harley Davidson are a hundred thousand dollar
25:05bagger. Like they can just make a limited run of those really high end bikes, lots of carbon fiber,
25:10you know, some titanium things here and there. And yeah, huge, huge margins, limited edition,
25:15stamp the tank. Yeah. They, that would be cool. It'd be super sick. I think that would,
25:20that'd be killer, but I'd also like to see a off-road R model like Jeff's talking about and,
25:25and you are, you know, lighter 21 and 18 longer travel. Um, you know, it may not be,
25:34it may not be what Harley people are looking for, but people outside of Harley may step into the brand
25:41for something like that. You know, I think a 975 engine would be suitable. Um, you don't need a ton of
25:47power, um, for something that's more off-road focused, you know, like a hundred horsepower is
25:53plenty for an offer. It's like for super off-roady adventure motorcycle and you just make a longer
26:00travel and slim it up a little bit more. And, um, yeah, I think it'd be killer.
26:06You might catch the eye of a KTM, uh,
26:08buyer. You really could, you know, you really might. So, um, I think we're all kind of in mind.
26:15Especially if they lean into like the American manufacturing, American manufacturing, you know,
26:20like sometimes they lean into that, sometimes they don't, but if they, you know, could make a bigger
26:25point of that, especially in today's, you know, American centric society or more American centric
26:32society, that would be, that'd be cool. Yep. Very much so. So, um, yeah, I think we're all kind
26:39of aligned on what we'd like to see. So Harley, if you're listening, do it. We may buy you pizza.
26:47Depends. You make a, you make an STR. All right. Maybe we'll buy you pizza.
26:52An off-road RR. I'll bust out the credit card. Um, so, uh, anything else you guys want to add on,
27:01on the Pan America before we, we wrap this thing up?
27:05Honestly, you guys got me excited. Just those two variations. That would be really cool.
27:10It would be cool. I'm happy to see them break out of the mold and, you know, and do something and
27:16have it work out well for them, you know? Yeah. Yeah. They've tried some stuff. Some of it seems
27:20sometimes it's, it has seemed, uh,
27:27sort of, uh, not fully on board, I guess is what I'm not fully committed.
27:34Fully realized. Yeah. Yeah. I think this bike though, like, I think it really does show that,
27:40um, you know, Harley Davidson proved they can build other things besides chromed out cruisers
27:47and big baggers. Like, you know, it's a huge company with a huge engineering know-how and it can
27:53do what it wants. Um, but it also likes to stick to what's safe sometimes. And, um, I think the
28:02stepping out to the adventure bike was not a fully safe move for them and, but it gave them the ability
28:09to, to show off their technical know-how and their engineering prowess. And they did it. I mean,
28:14it was, it was picked by, you know, some of us as the best adventure bike for 2021. Um, because it,
28:22it did trounce a lot of the, the current machines on the market. So, um, you know, while it's still
28:31Harley, it's a real ADV it's competitive in the class. Um, but it's probably time for a refresh,
28:37um, which I'm sure we'll see soon. And then, um, I think the last thing I'll say about it is
28:43is don't knock it until you try it. Cause it's actually really, really good.
28:49Yeah. Yep. So that's going to be it for us. Yep. That's going to be it for us. We're, uh,
28:54we're big fans of Pan America. Thanks for listening. We appreciate the support. Hit that like button,
28:59um, subscribe if you haven't, um, and put your comments down below. Let us know what you think
29:05about the Pan America. Um, if you think it's a real adventure bike and what would you like to see Harley,
29:11uh, change for the next, uh, the next update for that motorcycle. Thanks for listening.
29:17We'll see you on the next episode.
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