- 2 days ago
Western museums have long dominated the cultural narrative, often showcasing artefacts taken from colonised lands. The third edition of Bihar Museum Biennale, themed “Global South: Sharing Histories,” aims to reverse that legacy. In a conversation with Outlook’s Editor Chinki Sinha, Director General of the Bihar Museum Anjani Kumar Singh explains how the Biennale gives museums from the Global South the platform they’ve long been denied, not just to participate, but to lead.
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FunTranscript
00:00We started Binalae because we wanted to create a platform for museums and art institutions.
00:06What we found was there are a lot many art Binales in the world and some of them are very old.
00:12But there is nothing like a platform where museums can meet, art institutions can meet.
00:18They can showcase their strength, collection, history and they can also discuss their issues.
00:30Hi, welcome to Outtook Talks.
00:36We are again at Bihar Museum with Anjini Ji, the Director of Bihar Museum, Director General and also the Chief Advisor to the Chief Minister.
00:44And I have known Anjini Ji for a long, long time and we have partnered with the Bihar Museum before.
00:49And we have learnt a lot from how the Bihar Museum functions.
00:54So this is the third Museum Binalae which is focusing on Global South and kind of breaking free from the Global North gaze.
01:04Which is very interesting in our times because the world order is changing and a lot of things are being challenged.
01:11The whole colonisation, this, that, the freedom itself.
01:14And at that point, you know, you have an exhibition which also has a lot of these masks from different places that they've got.
01:22From the Global South which looks at Indigenous cultures, you know, the whole mystery of revealing and not revealing, you know.
01:30Also reassertion of identity and I think that's very interesting.
01:34Many museums are facing similar issues like issues of autonomy, number of visitors, funding, those type of issues.
01:46So we thought of creating a platform for museums and art institutions.
01:50And it was considered unique in a sense because nothing like this existed before.
01:55Yeah.
01:56So we invited to begin with our Indian museums, both government, non-government, history museums, contemporary art museums, public sector museums, private museums.
02:08And then we discussed and everybody agreed.
02:10They said that it's a very welcome thing and let us start a platform where we all will come.
02:15So we started in 2021.
02:17Unfortunately, because of pandemic, it became virtual.
02:21But the second edition was 2023.
02:24Virtual there was an advantage.
02:26The advantage was you don't have to physically come to Patna.
02:30Yeah.
02:31So many international museums, they did their exhibitions from there itself.
02:36And 2023, which was second edition, that we did for, you know, larger audience, larger participation.
02:42And we also got a chance to showcase G20 art exhibition.
02:48Yeah.
02:49That together we are, one world, one family, one future.
02:54So that chance was very nice for Bihar Museum because we got artworks from member countries, G20, 20 member countries and nine guest countries.
03:03And so because the theme was already identified.
03:06So what we planned was, we got one artwork from all these countries and also requested 20 senior Indian artists to work on same theme.
03:17Same theme.
03:18So, you know, there was a dialogue between what we got from outside and what our Indian artists did on the same.
03:25And that was, that exhibition was very well received.
03:28And many other, our neighbor countries like Nepal and Thailand, they brought beautiful exhibitions, very popular among people.
03:36And that was a great showcasing and people from Bihar and India, they all were very happy to see the variety, the range of exhibitions.
03:45The third edition, when we were planning our third edition, then we thought that now let us focus more on, you know, similar countries.
03:53Because when I used to visit outside, I used to find that, you know, all exhibitions, events and those type of activities are more dominated by so-called Global North, you know, developed countries.
04:06And these countries, countries from Global South, they were not getting platform and space that they deserve because they have beautiful art, they have art tradition, very good artists, culture, heritage, but they are not getting such platform to showcase.
04:22So, then I discussed with these countries and then majority of them agreed, we have not been able to accommodate a very big number, but we are having eight countries in exhibition.
04:34So, eight countries have brought exhibition and many more have participated in our seminars.
04:38Okay.
04:39And so, why did you decide in the sense to do this Global South and look at all these other things like, you know, rituals, mass.
04:47It's quite interesting that you have brought all of this together in a way that also addresses a lot of, you know, the divide.
04:56And it's also a very political thing to do in the current times.
05:00Because the whole narrative is dominated by them.
05:03Now, people are also saying, you know, it's, it happened, it happened in history.
05:10So, it's cyclic.
05:11So, now what people are saying, you know, the, ultimately, those countries which have, you know, the number and land mass, may not be, you know, that big share in world GDP, etc.
05:25But ultimately, they will prevail.
05:27So, you'll find that shift is happening from west to east, from global north to global south.
05:33Because if you add Asia and Africa, 90% of population of the world exists in these two continents.
05:40Yeah.
05:41So, and they are not getting proper representation.
05:43Yeah.
05:44So, that was the issue.
05:45And secondly, we also know that everything has flowed from Africa.
05:49Yeah.
05:50Whole civilization and everything.
05:52And even you see the, even contemporary art, art of the west, you go to Ethiopia.
05:57If, when you, you'll see their mask, then you will know the whole history of cubism, from where it started.
06:03Yeah.
06:04So, the western world has taken a lot of inspiration from African, Latin American countries.
06:10But some of those countries, their artists, you know, did not get platform.
06:14So, we thought that Bihar Museum has that infrastructure of holding and hosting international events.
06:20So, why not give chance to these countries?
06:22You know, it's also very important because it's a time where there's a lot of cultural appropriation going on.
06:27You know, we just saw that whole Prada and Kolapuri Chappal.
06:29It had happened in the past also.
06:31So, it's quite interesting to kind of bring to the forefront that, see, this is how it was.
06:35Like, you talk about cubism and the Ethiopian mask.
06:38The other thing I thought, if you could a little bit talk about, you know, this exhibition.
06:44Because this is very interesting in terms of the five sections that you've divided it in.
06:48Like, you know, you created a mirror selfie wall also with the Japanese theatre actor situation.
06:56And there's a lot of other things about the spiritual realm.
06:59You know, then there is festival performance.
07:01So, why did you decide with the mask?
07:04Mask is a very interesting symbol, you know.
07:07And that tells you a lot about their history and cultures.
07:12And ethnic people, their practices.
07:15So, that is one very good symbol, powerful symbol.
07:18If you select, take that, you know much about their country.
07:21By seeing mask, you can say from which country it is coming.
07:24So, let's say, sir, if you have to look at this mask.
07:26Yeah.
07:27So, you will know, like, you know, this huge mask, it's made of wood and a lot of weight.
07:36So, for wearing this mask, you have to be very well built.
07:38Yeah.
07:39So, that type of population is coming from Africa.
07:41Yeah.
07:42So, they can wear that and dance.
07:44So, you know, that gives you, and mask not only conceals, mask reveals.
07:48A lot.
07:49A lot.
07:50A lot.
07:51A lot.
07:52And many things, you know, they are using it for festivals, dances, harvest, for many things.
08:00And even their, what do you call it?
08:04Shamanism.
08:05Shamanic exorcism.
08:07Exorcism.
08:08So, for all those practices, it was used very, and India also is very rich.
08:13Yeah.
08:14A lot.
08:15And luckily, because of the space constraint, because we want to highlight more of Global South.
08:20So, India has been underplayed.
08:21But India, if you can do one whole exhibition on Indian mask.
08:25Yeah.
08:26Huge, beautiful mask.
08:27Then just to give flavour, we have also included some contemporary artists like Arpana Kaur.
08:33Seema Kohli.
08:34Seema Kohli, Sachinana Jha, you know, they are also working in this area.
08:38So, we have included just to give variety.
08:41So, this gives you a glimpse of Global South.
08:43Yeah.
08:44Similarly, the second part of exhibition is of paintings.
08:47Hmm.
08:48So, paintings from these continents and these countries, that also gives you a very good view, you know, what is popular where and why.
08:57Hmm.
08:58What is a normal art practice?
08:59What contemporary artists in those countries are thinking?
09:02So, that gives you a good glimpse.
09:04Good perspective.
09:05Good glimpse.
09:06So, these two exhibitions, if you see together, then you get a very good idea of Global South.
09:10And there is another one which was very interesting where you have, I think Thailand, Indonesia, about the Ramayana thing and Sri Lanka as well.
09:19Yeah.
09:20So, these are the two exhibitions, main exhibitions in the main exhibition space.
09:25Then we have, in the first instalment, we are showcasing Ethiopia.
09:31Yeah.
09:32And Indonesia in our multipurpose hall.
09:35These two countries.
09:36So, Ethiopia, you see, is mind-blowing.
09:38Yeah, yeah.
09:39Their textile.
09:40Beautiful actually.
09:41Their textile is mind-blowing.
09:43Then, Indonesia puppetry, and they also have beautiful textiles and many things.
09:49So, those two exhibitions are also becoming very popular.
09:52Then, Government of India did one Prawasi Divas.
09:56Bhartiya Divas.
09:57Bhartiya Divas.
09:58Bhartiya Divas in Odisha.
09:59ICCR.
10:00Yeah.
10:01So, ICCR has created one exhibition.
10:03So, from that exhibition, you have taken that part, which is from Global South.
10:08So, that exhibition also has come up very nicely.
10:11How Ram, Ram, Sita, Lakshman, Hanuman.
10:14Ravan.
10:15Ravan.
10:16How all these were seen in different ways in different countries.
10:21And that also tells you about the influence, intermingling of culture, the trade.
10:27How things have gone from India, influence those countries.
10:30And also the mixing of stories.
10:31Mixing of stories.
10:32You have the whole thing of Ramayana.
10:34Yeah.
10:35So, that exhibition is also very nice.
10:37Sri Lanka, we got contemporary artists.
10:40Yeah.
10:41One thing that was very different this time, was we asked these countries.
10:46We did not give them a theme, common theme.
10:48Yeah.
10:49Many people asked me that what will be the theme for this binale.
10:51Yeah.
10:52You also went without a curator in that sense.
10:54Yeah.
10:55Which was a brave step.
10:56Yeah.
10:57So, the binale.
10:58What I said is, you bring your best.
11:01What you want to showcase, we are not going to interfere.
11:04The story you want to tell.
11:06People to know.
11:07Whatever you want.
11:08So, they have brought their strength.
11:11And that's why, you know, there is no binding.
11:14There is no boundary.
11:15Yeah.
11:16They have got that chance.
11:17They have brought beautiful, mixed of artefacts.
11:20That is telling a good story of this country.
11:23You talked to me about this person from Ecuador.
11:26And the coffee thing.
11:27Which was a very interesting one.
11:28And kind of like also challenges the preconceived notions about origins of things.
11:33Like, Ecuador is bringing in second instalment.
11:36They are bringing the story of cocoa.
11:39Yeah.
11:40Because now, some archeological excavation has proved they have got a pot.
11:44Which says that it has something of cocoa.
11:47So, they are saying it has started from there.
11:49So, they want to show that story.
11:51Then they have a beautiful island.
11:54With great biodiversity.
11:56So, that they are showcasing.
11:59Then the life and culture through some contemporary artists.
12:02So, that is again becoming.
12:03They are not bringing one thing.
12:04Yeah.
12:05They are bringing a combination.
12:06Yeah.
12:07So, that is one nice thing.
12:09But I think also it's a whole thing of reassertion.
12:11Of that, of the fact that see this is where it came from.
12:15And this is who we are.
12:16So, that you know we have a history of like you know taking over.
12:20You know what we call colonization in other words.
12:22Yes.
12:23And so, I mean it's also very political.
12:25So.
12:26Yes, yes, yes.
12:27Do you ever get.
12:28No, it is happening.
12:30Like if you go to.
12:31I went to US.
12:32I went to New Jersey some museum.
12:34You go you find you know very large amount of our artifacts.
12:39Yeah.
12:40Like one.
12:41There was one exhibition on Asian bronze in this in Amsterdam.
12:46Rijksmuseum.
12:47So, if you see that composition of that exhibition.
12:50More than 50% is from India only.
12:53Yeah.
12:54It has not gone from Bihar Museum or National Museum.
12:57Part of that we gave.
12:58Yeah.
12:59We also became partner in that exhibition.
13:01But more than half is from India.
13:03Yeah.
13:04And the rest of the world is another half.
13:07But it is coming from different museum.
13:09British Museum, Metropolitan Museum and all those museums.
13:12Where it went much earlier.
13:13Yeah.
13:14Exactly.
13:15Few things are coming back.
13:16That is nice.
13:17Some countries are returning.
13:19But slowly people are especially now.
13:23If you even we are having that same situation here.
13:26So, wherever excavation is taking place.
13:29Now people are saying that it is our property.
13:32Yeah.
13:33So, that ownership.
13:34What they are saying is.
13:35No, no.
13:36You cannot take it out.
13:37And to some different museum.
13:39Far from.
13:40You create a site museum.
13:41So, there is now a huge demand of site museums.
13:44Yeah.
13:45Like in Telhara.
13:46Where we had a very important excavation.
13:48Buddhist period.
13:49And very very important exhibition.
13:52Which is still undergoing.
13:54So, there people insisted.
13:56That you have to have a site museum.
13:58And government had to make a site museum.
14:00Yeah.
14:01Because otherwise.
14:02Otherwise, you know.
14:03It is not like that.
14:04Everything will be in Patna.
14:05Yeah.
14:06Or everything will be in Delhi.
14:07Yeah.
14:08Or everything will be in London.
14:09So, gone are those days.
14:10Yeah.
14:11Now people are saying.
14:12No.
14:13If it has come from here.
14:14So, it has to be here.
14:15Okay.
14:16And another thing is like.
14:17With all of this.
14:18That is happening.
14:19And you talked about the autonomy.
14:20And we all know that.
14:21You know museums also.
14:22We partnered with you guys.
14:24In the last finale.
14:25And we did discuss this democratization of museums.
14:29And also the future of museums.
14:31And now two years later.
14:32With this exhibition.
14:33How do you think it is going to go in the future?
14:36The role and character of museums changed very significantly.
14:41Yeah.
14:42Earlier it was.
14:43Most of the museums were buildings and collections.
14:46You may have a beautiful collection and building.
14:49But how many times people will go for that?
14:51Yeah.
14:52Once, twice.
14:53So, museums have to convert themselves into cultural space.
14:58Center of activities.
15:00You have to keep on creating activities for different stakeholders.
15:04Then only ownership from the society will come.
15:07Hmm.
15:08Otherwise, it will continue to be a jadughar, a touristic place.
15:12People will come and go once.
15:14Yeah.
15:15But if you want, you know, poets, artists, literature, music, performing art.
15:21Hmm.
15:22All to be connected.
15:23So, you have to provide that space.
15:24So, museum, my collection is fine.
15:26Building is beautiful.
15:27But that alone is not sufficient.
15:29So, you have to keep on curating activities.
15:32Bringing people, you know, exchanging things.
15:36Yeah.
15:37Exchange is another area.
15:38In fact, India has more than a thousand museums.
15:40So, how many museums have exchanged exhibition?
15:42Very few.
15:43Very few.
15:44Why?
15:45Very few.
15:46Because the first thing is you require that type of infrastructure.
15:48Then you need those type of openness and rules.
15:51Yeah, and vision also.
15:52Vision also.
15:53You know, otherwise what happens, you know,
15:54sending artifacts from one museum to another museum is so complicated and bureaucratic.
15:59Yeah.
16:00Very.
16:01Unless you change your rules, it's very difficult.
16:02Very difficult.
16:03You can keep very nice things in, say, a place called Assam or somewhere in interior Karnatka.
16:10But people will see only when it is exchanged to various museums and various platforms.
16:15Exactly.
16:16Yeah, like we can come to see here.
16:17Yeah.
16:18All of these things.
16:19Yeah.
16:20There is a conscious policy that now we are taking our exhibition outside India, outside
16:25Bihar in India, and we are also getting exhibitions from outside.
16:30Because once people are coming here, seeing our infrastructure, because naturally, the
16:35good museums will require, you know, a particular standard of infrastructure.
16:39Yeah.
16:40They want good lighting, air conditioning, security, curatorial team.
16:44Unless you have all this, the good exhibitions will not come.
16:47Yeah.
16:48You have to have infrastructure.
16:50So that is one area.
16:51Now Bihar Museum has infrastructure.
16:53Many more museums are coming or adding their infrastructure.
16:56So things will, things will improve and improving.
16:59They are improving.
17:00You were a geography student.
17:02And you know, this whole thing is also very geographical in a way, right?
17:06Yes.
17:07Like, so the politics of geography and how these certain areas like Africa, we don't
17:11hear much from Africa.
17:12So if you look at even the media landscape, we hardly cover, you know, because of whatever,
17:17I think preconceived notions and there's a lot of stigma also around a lot of these places.
17:23So I just wanted to understand from your perspective, like when you thought about it,
17:28I mean, I'm sure it was your idea.
17:30But how did geography play its role in terms of like looking at it and cutting the whole thing
17:37into two hemispheres?
17:38I mean, it's very important.
17:40It's just, you know, distribution is like that.
17:42Yeah.
17:43All these, most of these countries were colonies.
17:45Yeah.
17:46Were colonies.
17:47They became independent much after.
17:49But when I visited this country, I found a very rich history and culture.
17:53Very rich.
17:54Very rich.
17:55Problem is, it was the infrastructure, not good museums.
17:59Funding was issue in most of the places.
18:01In most of the places.
18:02And maybe the will also.
18:03Will also.
18:04In fact, you will find now things are changing very significantly.
18:07But if you go to Africa, you will find that all good artists from different countries of Africa,
18:12they are either in South Africa.
18:14Yeah.
18:15Some of them have gone to, say, New York, Paris, London.
18:19The best ones.
18:20But otherwise, they go to South Africa.
18:24Because they have galleries.
18:26They have those type of facilities, infrastructure.
18:28People are ready to buy.
18:30Art is investment.
18:31Yeah.
18:32So otherwise, you will see in South Africa and Ethiopia.
18:35Though artists may be in Kenya.
18:37Yeah.
18:38Other places.
18:39Congo.
18:40Sudan, everywhere.
18:41Yeah.
18:42But somehow that type of, slowly.
18:43Because, you know, art, whatever you say, ultimately remains, you know, first is that,
18:48Roti Kapra Makaan.
18:49Hmm.
18:50Then only, but, but their music, their dance, their performances, very strong.
18:55Very strong.
18:56In spite of, you know, whatever is their level of economy, these things have remained very strong.
19:02Historically.
19:03Hmm.
19:04We wanted to showcase this and we wanted the world to see.
19:06That's why we are making two publications.
19:08We are making one publication where we have discussed issues of Global South.
19:14Hmm.
19:15That is based on our seminars that we have done.
19:17Dr. Alka Pandey has curated that.
19:19And other one is on exhibitions.
19:22Hmm.
19:23Hmm.
19:24So, Batul Ra's team is, Mehta's team, BRMA team is, has done all these design and these things.
19:30So, they will be bringing a book on these exhibitions.
19:35On these exhibitions.
19:36So, there will be two publications.
19:37Hmm.
19:38Hmm.
19:39Hmm.
19:40One will seminars, academy.
19:41Another will be exhibitions.
19:42One thing is that you have always, you know, so how do you make this reach the public in a way that it's simple and people like we see a lot of people coming in from, you know, we have been here for two days and like a lot of people are coming from villages and all kinds of places just and very intrigued.
19:57I mean, looking at all this very interestingly and you have the chow mask also from India and all of that.
20:01Yes.
20:02So, how do you make that happen, you know, the connect?
20:05One, one way is, you know, do it for a longer period.
20:08Hmm.
20:09Because that is another, that was another problem in India.
20:12Most of the exhibitions because they were done in gallery one week, one fortnight, one month.
20:18Yeah.
20:19But that, we have changed.
20:20Like this exhibition is for more than four months.
20:23Hmm.
20:24It has started from 7th August and it will continue till 31st December.
20:28So, you have sufficient time.
20:29Yeah.
20:30Come according to, you know, your, your own convenience whenever you want to come.
20:34And not to make monotonous for the local people.
20:37Yeah.
20:38We are also changing some exhibition after one and half months, two months.
20:42Hmm.
20:43So, they keep seeing.
20:45So, there's some newness.
20:46Newness.
20:47So, you have to come again and again if you want to see everything.
20:50Hmm.
20:51And that we, that keeps things interesting for even for the local people.
20:55Hmm.
20:56And this time, there was another step that we have taken that earlier, all the activity used to be in Bihar Museum.
21:02Now, Patna is developing as a city of museums.
21:05Okay.
21:06You have many museums now.
21:07How many now?
21:08Yeah.
21:09You have Buddha Smriti Park.
21:11Hmm.
21:12There is a very good museum on Buddha.
21:14Now, we have Bapu Tower on Mahatma Gandhi.
21:17We already had a Gandhi museum.
21:19Gandhi Ashram.
21:20Hmm.
21:21In Patna.
21:22Then you had science museum.
21:23Now, we are making a very big science museum that will get inaugurated.
21:26Uh, Patna museum has been revamped.
21:29And now, a lot of space has been added.
21:32The whole thing is getting changed in Bihar museum.
21:35Then we are creating a very huge museum in Vaisali.
21:38Okay.
21:39That is on the life of Lord Buddha.
21:41Hmm.
21:42And the assets of Lord Buddha, which was in Patna museum, that is getting shifted to Vaisali museum.
21:46Okay.
21:47And there is a huge infrastructure in 62 acres.
21:50So, you have in 50 square kilometers, you know, you have seven, eight museums.
21:56We plan to have one ticket, you know, like, you know, foreign countries, developed countries.
22:01You can buy one ticket, see all museums.
22:03All the museums.
22:04And leisurely, you can see in one week.
22:06Or one month or whatever.
22:07Or one month or whatever.
22:08Yeah.
22:09So, we will have that type of ticket, ticket and go.
22:11So, slowly that type of culture, museum going culture is developing.
22:15And why is that in Bihar and Patna?
22:17Because, you know, a lot of people also criticise, and we have talked about this before, about Bihar museum,
22:22that why a poor state should fund such a big museum, you know, and such a…
22:26And the architecture itself, which is very different from what you see around.
22:31And so, when you say that the city of museums…
22:35No, no.
22:36We have faced this question, you know, that why, you know, money is not going on roads, electricity, schools.
22:42I said, it's going, so all things are changing.
22:45Yeah.
22:46Bihar, now in electricity, you have everywhere electricity, 23 hours, even in the rural areas.
22:51Yeah.
22:52And roads, people are all…
22:54I'm not saying, people are saying.
22:56Although that infrastructure is developing, but our strong point is Bihar is, you know, Bihar can develop using its soft power.
23:04We don't have that type of land, that type of deposit of minerals, that you can be heavily industrialised and bring those big industries.
23:14They will never come.
23:15Our route will be agriculture, education, tourism, art, heritage and culture.
23:20So, for us, it is very significant.
23:23That is part one.
23:24Part two is that, you know, we had such a glorious past.
23:28We had Patliputra was capital of India.
23:30At that time, India was bigger than what it is today.
23:33So, that glory, that, you know, genit of art, culture and everything.
23:37So, this younger generation, not only of Bihar and India, they should know and they should get inspired by that.
23:43Yeah.
23:44Inspired by that.
23:45And thirdly, it will increase.
23:47It is increasing already, you know.
23:49Tourism in Bihar.
23:51In Bihar.
23:52And, you know, that type of soft power.
23:54Many, many countries have used their soft power to develop their economy.
23:58Yeah.
23:59That is true.
24:00So, if you don't have that type of combination of mineral land and that type of…
24:03So, we have to find a route and Bihar has selected this route.
24:08The other questions I was very intrigued about.
24:10See, what museums can learn from all this, right?
24:12Because we have been seeing an era of museums where people hardly go.
24:16You know, it becomes one of those places where you are either kind of doing very dead narratives or promoting like one person or the other.
24:24I mean, it's pretty much like it's not intriguing enough.
24:26Let's say for a lot of people to go and see.
24:29I mean, we were talking the other day that a lot of museums are pretty much empty these days.
24:34There's not much growth or how do you say, there's not much courage in terms of showing something which is very different and which takes a lot of guts.
24:44So, what can museums learn from the Bihar Museum and the Museum Binale and, you know, in terms of putting this kind of stuff out?
24:54Because this has been existing from before also.
24:57You know, if you see, we still follow those norms and rules which was created during say colonial period.
25:08Yeah.
25:09Then you will remain bureaucratic, following rules, you know, closed, those type of, may have very good collection.
25:18But if you're not showing people, not people are interacting with that in an interesting manner, people will not come.
25:24That problem was faced by many museums. Many museums had to make it entry, free entry.
25:30We charge highest in India, 100 rupees. Of course, for children and students, you have quite subsidized tickets.
25:37But you still see a lot of crowd.
25:39A lot of crowd. But so that's why. And another is, you cannot keep now museum very elitist.
25:45Yeah.
25:46So if the museum is for the society, if my 95% of visitors are local people, so when I plan anything, any activity or any edition, maybe technological display or anything, they are in front of me.
26:02So who is my visitor? That question museums will have to answer. Who is coming? And who is getting excited, happy?
26:10Yeah.
26:11So you have to keep that in mind. You can make very, very sophisticated elitist museum.
26:16Hmm.
26:17But then the number will be very small.
26:18Yeah.
26:19If it is not very interactive, like in our children's section, the first thing we started, we said, here there will be nowhere, don't.
26:27It will be, we are encouraging children, we are saying, please touch, please feel.
26:31Yeah.
26:32Please experience, please play.
26:33Yeah.
26:34So it's very unlike museum.
26:35Yeah.
26:36Yeah.
26:37But so when we are designing that, we selected those type of materials.
26:41That you can like touch.
26:42That you can touch, feel, do whatever you want to do.
26:45Yeah.
26:46And that is how to wear and tear that of course we will repair or do improve.
26:49Yeah, I'll fix it.
26:50Yeah.
26:51We will maintain it.
26:52We will maintain it.
26:53But unless you saw children in our children's section is very excited.
26:56So many museums, not only from India, from outside, they have come and they have picked up that.
27:01Our strategy.
27:02Yeah.
27:03Of doing a children's medium.
27:05You can, how can you have a children's section and don't allow children to play.
27:08Children to touch or kind of, yeah.
27:09Feel and play.
27:10Yeah, that is true.
27:11That cannot, that cannot be done.
27:12No.
27:13No.
27:14And also the fact that, you know, we are living in very interesting times because the whole concept of power and supremacy is being challenged every day now.
27:23You know, look at what has happened in the world geopolitics situation.
27:28So in that time, you know, this exhibition is quite timely and very, very, very.
27:32Yes.
27:33Yes.
27:34And another very important dimension is now you have to make your museum experiential and your style should be a storytelling.
27:43Yeah, completely.
27:44What is happening in many museums, you have such a description, you know, written in very archaeological style.
27:50Yeah.
27:51And so people don't understand.
27:52No.
27:53But then they always, like we've asked this question, they'll always say that, oh, but this is what a gallery would prefer.
27:58Or this is what sets us, sets us apart from other people.
28:02And then, you know, this whole thing of sounding and sounding like an intellectual or whatever it's acceptable in the art world.
28:08Yeah.
28:09Exactly.
28:10Exactly.
28:11It has to be very simple.
28:12Yeah.
28:13It has to be very simple.
28:14But then they'll say that people are dumb.
28:17So, no, if it is some simple and your style is storytelling and if you've used your labelling and small, small stories, you know, in between, I have made interactive, asked questions, then people start taking interest and enjoying things.
28:31Exactly.
28:32Enjoying things.
28:33And if your descriptions are very cryptic and very complicated, it does not matter for a general person, anything is of 1530 or 1630, what difference that makes?
28:44Yeah.
28:45It can make in academic discourse and all that.
28:48That is fine.
28:49For that you give right information.
28:51Our job is to give right information.
28:53Yeah.
28:54But give in such a style, people understand.
28:56No, no.
28:57I also think that there's a huge political statement you're also making here by saying that, okay, we trust the people who are coming here.
29:03Yes.
29:04Okay, so we underestimate other people.
29:05We always think they're dumb, they don't understand.
29:07So we will impose our viewpoint on them.
29:11But you know, when I look at this festival and performance, you have just let it be.
29:16There's not too much explanation, too much imposition of your view of the mask and festivals and the whole.
29:23This we have learnt.
29:24This we have learnt from people.
29:25Yeah.
29:26Like, you know, earlier in our history gallery, we had that typical type of labels.
29:33So our chief minister and many visitors told us, number one, increase the size of font size.
29:40So that it is easily readable.
29:43Yeah.
29:44Number one.
29:45Number two, line two lines, three lines about that sculpture or whatever you are showing in a simple language.
29:50Yeah.
29:51In a simple language.
29:52So people said and we did it.
29:53We did it.
29:54Happily did it.
29:55Yeah.
29:56And we are finding now it's much better.
29:57Much better.
29:58You know, you never think that people will think that we are not intellectual.
30:01And you know, if you go anywhere, if you see this long description with all these words, you know, intersectionality is
30:10one of the most thrown around words.
30:12But how do you like kind of counter that in your own way?
30:15And since you did not come from it, you are a bureaucrat, right?
30:18And then you built this museum and…
30:20No, no.
30:21When this vision of our chief minister, Mr. Anitish Kumar, when we planned, you know, the
30:25story is like this.
30:26We wanted to add some space in Patna Museum.
30:29So our chief minister went there.
30:30We were thinking how to expand and all that.
30:33The chief minister said, why to add space?
30:35You create a new space, international level space because you have international, very high
30:40quality of artifacts.
30:42They require better, yeah.
30:43Disclaimer.
30:44So let us maintain the identity of Patna Museum.
30:47It's a very old, beautiful museum.
30:49So that will remain.
30:50But you know, you develop a new one.
30:52So then Bihar Museum was created.
30:54Ultimately, this Bihar Museum and Patna Museum, if you see on historical timeline.
30:59So from civilization to 17 odd is here.
31:02And the rest is Patna Museum.
31:04And Patna Museum also is getting revamped with modern infrastructure, lighting.
31:09Yeah, I saw it.
31:10Very, very nice actually.
31:11And then getting connected by our tunnel.
31:13A tunnel.
31:14Yeah.
31:15So right from the beginning, we were very clear.
31:18We were very clear that it has to be world-class.
31:21It has to be, you know, it should fill a gap, national gap.
31:26Because you know, this type of infrastructure does not, should come more and more.
31:30Yeah.
31:31And it's very interesting that people are coming to Bihar, right?
31:33Yeah.
31:34You know, from everywhere.
31:35So now there is a pressure on different states also.
31:37They are also improving their museum infrastructure.
31:40So that time, and it has to be for people.
31:45Yeah.
31:46So that was very clear in the mind.
31:47It's not for academics.
31:48No.
31:49No.
31:50They are welcome.
31:51They are welcome.
31:52They are welcome.
31:53Everybody is that.
31:54They are welcome.
31:55But primarily it is for general people, for the society.
31:58For the society.
31:59And the other thing is that if you can just take one mask or anything, you thought was very intriguing.
32:06And in terms of like you wanted to kind of…
32:08No, naturally I'll tell about my own mask from Patna Museum.
32:12Yeah, the terracotta one.
32:13The terracotta one.
32:14Yeah.
32:15That is first or second century.
32:16It's very beautiful.
32:17That time terracotta mask.
32:19So you know, even terracotta, if you go to the history, even rock paintings, you will see some, you know, painting of masks.
32:26So mask is not of very recent origin.
32:29Yeah.
32:30It's very, very old thing.
32:31Very old, yeah.
32:32Very old thing.
32:33Maybe for decoration, festivity and all type of things.
32:35Yeah.
32:36But it's very, very old history.
32:37No, I also heard, I was reading in, a lot of times the judges in courts in the olden days used to wear masks so that they don't get incriminated later for pronouncing a certain kind of judgment.
32:47Yeah.
32:48So the mask was everywhere, it seems.
32:50Yeah.
32:51Unfortunately, now the criminals wear masks when they are robbing a bank or doing crime, you know.
32:56Yeah, yeah, yeah.
32:57You've seen all those Netflix movies.
32:59Yeah.
33:00You know, so it has gone a long way.
33:02No, it's also been, you know, kind of like stigmatized in a sense that, you know, if you look at the horror films, the witches will wear something like that.
33:10Yes, yes.
33:11Or the Ku Klux Klan.
33:13The mask is across, I think.
33:15Yeah.
33:16But it has remained a very important part of the society.
33:19Yeah.
33:20And culture.
33:21It's very intriguing now that, you know, you see all these, and then I didn't know that Assam would have such an interesting.
33:26All the states, all the states.
33:28Yeah.
33:29In fact, there should be, maybe we may do it.
33:31There should be one exhibition of, full exhibition on Indian masks.
33:34Exactly.
33:35Indian masks.
33:36Yeah, because look at that Assam one.
33:37Yeah, yeah.
33:38Or look at even the chau masks actually.
33:40Yeah, beautiful.
33:41Beautiful.
33:42You know, we just wanted to say congratulations and it's a great show.
33:45No, no, we have.
33:46There has been great partnership with Outlook.
33:48Yeah.
33:49In fact, I mean, last year Binale also you covered in great detail.
33:53This year also you are doing a great job.
33:55So that is, that partnership, that relationship has also, you know, taken our Binale to, you know, on that stage, national and international stage.
34:03Yeah.
34:04So it has been, you know, benefiting to both parties.
34:06Yeah.
34:07We also have been very, we learnt so much about museums and how do you take museums to the people.
34:12And, you know, it also helps us in our work to be simple and to be brave.
34:16Yes.
34:17You know, I think one of the things that I think Bihar Museum has done is being really brave.
34:22I mean, you have smashed, look at what all kinds of things.
34:25We have not had a curator which is unthinkable in terms of.
34:28No, it's very interesting.
34:30You know, each country, they brought things, they have brought the concept, they have selected the artifacts.
34:38Then the BRMA team designed.
34:41Yeah.
34:42Based on the collection that is coming here.
34:44They designed and they said, you know, this will be displayed like this.
34:47Yeah.
34:48So that design part, co-cubation part is from BRMA.
34:51Yeah.
34:52Batullah's Mehta's team.
34:53And, but we, these countries had freedom what they will bring.
34:57Yeah.
34:58And they also told us that this is our story.
35:01Yeah.
35:02So we have not, you know, disturbed that story.
35:03No, which is such a.
35:04We have gone with that story.
35:05Yeah.
35:06And also there's a lot of friendship in terms of that you showcased, you know, Indonesia, India, you know, all these other places, Sri Lanka, India, which is also a nice thing, you know, when everybody is talking about wars.
35:17Here is a museum and a museum binale which is talking about friendships also.
35:21Last year binale also we had two neighbors like Thailand and Nepal.
35:25Nepal.
35:26Nepal.
35:27This time we have Sri Lanka and Indonesia.
35:28Yeah.
35:29So we are also taking, you know, our neighbors, you know, that is a family, larger family.
35:34Because we need to get along with everybody.
35:36Yeah.
35:37No, so thank you so much.
35:39Very nice.
35:40Very nice.
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