- 2 months ago
Documentary, BBC Jobfished
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TVTranscript
00:00I can't come down what are you looking at I'm looking yes I'm looking in the bedroom window
00:11it's just a tiny bit creepy but this is what we've been reduced to
00:17I'm Katrin Nye an investigative journalist a year ago I found out about a company called
00:27Madbird it seemed like the perfect job loads of good clients that they'd worked with previously
00:33like big brands like Facebook Samsung Madbird is a creative agency it does graphic design work
00:40makes things like websites apps social media content dozens of people from all over the world
00:46work there you hear about startups that explode all the time and all these people who were billionaires
00:52because of it I didn't meet anyone in person the whole thing was just online that's when
00:57alarm bells started ringing the problem is that the company is not real it's not that the email
01:04had evidence of how we never worked through Samsung or Facebook everything happened just basically fake
01:09I've spent the last year trying to figure out how on earth so many people ended up working for a fake
01:15company it's very nice very real no one in my organization has any idea these people are I'm
01:22definitely not a graphic designer I'm a health and safety consultant what is going on and who was
01:28behind this insane online con this guy fooled all of us you shattered people's dream you shattered my dream
01:36you didn't create any opportunities for anyone
01:39I'm Chris I'm 27 I'm from Cornwall I've worked in sales ever since I've finished university
02:00so how did this all start um how did it start I got laid off from my last job as a salesperson
02:09at a company in Manchester
02:13it's 2020 the UK and much of the rest of the world are deep in lockdown hundreds of thousands
02:20of people are unemployed and desperately searching online for work I'm James I'm 25 uh born and raised
02:27in York and I studied at Lincoln University I never know what to say what's like a good thing to say
02:32about yourself yeah favorite color is blue I've been applying for jobs ever since I finished uni it's
02:41just the same process like day in day out applying searching and applying search and waiting for
02:46feedback do you know how many jobs you're applying for that's a bloody good question honestly I wouldn't
02:53even be exaggerating if I said like over 2,000 like it was a lot then each time you drop out of the
02:59process of a job application then it's sort of you lose a little bit more hope each time
03:04enter mad bird a design agency advertising great-looking jobs in sales and graphic design
03:15so I load loaded up Google popped in there web address and I was like
03:20oh
03:21loads of good clients that they've worked with previously like big brands like Facebook Samsung
03:29Nike Samsungite National Geographic that sounds like big budgets as well I've been doing graphic
03:37design since I was 16 I went to university where I got a first-class degree I've been working in the
03:45industry ever since and I showed it to lots of people who I know who are in the same industry as
03:52me and they all agreed it looked great it's established it's based in Kensington I set my CV off and then it's a
04:04couple of days later I was contacted about a first stage interview by Simona Simona she came across as
04:13quite quite timid so she's I mean she spoke with a soft voice she had like a Eastern European
04:20accent everyone had a similar experience once they got through that first stage interview with Simona
04:27they'd have another interview with a man called Ali Ayad the director of Mad Bird
04:33so Ali is uh Lebanese um he's handsome he very much had the vibe of Tom Cruise energy I got a really
04:43nice vibe from him a big personality he would tell yeah you should do this you should do that it'll be good
04:49for you yeah I believe in you hi hi Steffi was one of the few people who wasn't unemployed when she
04:57started working at Mad Bird she had a good job somewhere else but left it he just put that you
05:03know energy in me back lucky I can do anything I want to do Ali was very invested I think into hustle
05:16culture which is sort of prevalent across social media which is working long hours he was just
05:24speaking like how these leaders speak if Elon Musk works 15 hours a day he's gonna work 16 hours a day
05:33but he talked about Steve Jobs he talked about how he wanted to be building the next Apple and he
05:41also wore a turtleneck when I met him as well what I remembered most that touched me is the fact that
05:46he cared about the Black Lives Matter Ali had Black Lives Matter on his company website so Ali's Instagram
05:52he had loads of followers and his pictures look all professionally done like he was an influencer
05:58he'd featured in GQ magazine so Ali was a co-founder but he also constantly referred to the other co-founders
06:10and that was Dave Stanfield and Tommy Ray jr and was talking about all the sort of things that he was
06:16ready to do with the team congratulations you have been accepted for the role of sales and marketing
06:25executive at Madbird Inc and how did you feel about finally having a job I was buzzing absolutely
06:31buzzing I'd finally found a job that I knew I could like progress in one of my best friends Helen was
06:37like oh my god this is it Jim this is it everyone was told they'd have a six-month probation period on
06:44commission only and then get a full salary considering Madbird had clients like Facebook and Nike on its
06:51website though working on commission only for a while didn't seem like a problem they all started
06:57at Madbird in the middle of the pandemic and that meant home working no one ever met in person so my
07:04name is Jordan I'm 26 I'm originally from Suffolk so yeah I gave up a paid position to go to a commission only job at
07:14Madbird and I thought if I just work half six months I'm gonna get this base salary
07:24yeah he's coming he's in now so I'll just admit lovely
07:27the new members of Madbird sales team of about 30 people were working flat out to try and land big
07:36new clients for the company if you guys have any questions you'll be able to ask me is it are you
07:41web-based have a good weekend bye bye bye just show you a couple of examples that we've done with web
07:47design before can you see that screen I worked there for nearly six months and I think I contacted over
07:5710,000 people people in Switzerland Dubai France loads in the UK Australia what's the time there
08:06about two o'clock is it you haven't met Chris yet so so we had the sales team sending off all this
08:11potential business they were sending them off to Ali and he's saying okay he's busy but there he's
08:16looking at them with Tommy and Dave Madbird was in talks with some big clients the main one to start
08:26with in the new year was comic relief another big one was Imar they deal with like the Burj Khalifa
08:32that was gonna be about 30,000 we had an email that said our everyone would have like a big Madbird
08:44you know zoom meeting we just jumped into zoom call with everyone around the world and just introduce
08:49yourself like who are you what do you do so you had names I recognized from LinkedIn for example
08:55I believe that was the first time I had actually seen Tommy and heard him speak he had a Scottish
09:02accent Tommy had worked at quite a few design agencies that are well respected he came across
09:09pretty well to be fair real easygoing there were a few with no screens on or mics muted and not saying
09:16anything we had Nigel White a profile that said Nigel White but the screen was black and they never
09:21actually said anything through the whole entire call it was it was strange but I didn't think too
09:28much of that you just think okay people don't want to put their camera on or or whatever Tommy said let's
09:34go around everyone and introduce say like a fact about yourself and Ali stopped that Ali sort of jumped in
09:43and he was saying oh no no no we don't want to do this like everyone's busy like we just want to get on with the
09:48cool so that zoom call struck everyone as a bit weird but things were about to get a hell of a lot stranger
09:57I've received an email from Jane Smith who I was unfamiliar with the rest of the Mad Bird employees
10:02were CC'd in I'm like Jane Smith was Jane Smith for the attention of Mad Bird employees some shocking
10:10evidence has come to light regarding Mad Bird and I was as I was reading the email my mouth kept dropping
10:15like we have strong reason to suspect that the founders of Mad Bird have knowingly participated
10:22in the following activities one stealing the work of others and presenting this work as their own to
10:30both Mad Bird staff and potential clients oh my gosh two fabricating team members including co-founder
10:39Dave Stanfield and many more I was like what the hell is going on three fabricating a client and work
10:47portfolio four fabricating past work experience what what is going on five fabricating an office
10:58location the email had evidence a PDF and just of like how mad but it's fake how we never worked
11:05with Samsung or Facebook or anyone it was just copied everything how everything's just basically fake it
11:11was like something out of a movie what the hell do we do now all of the work was stolen a
11:17lot of it was stolen from someone who had died years previously so when I saw that I was just
11:23thinking am I a dickhead because I've literally been here for like two months working my ass off for
11:31like how many hours not getting paid telling people to do this recruiting people to a fake company we've
11:39all heard the stories about people that get catfished like they you swipe right on tinder you match it seems
11:44like the real deal on paper and then you actually come to meet this person in real life and it's
11:4957 year old Alan from Shropshire one of the most hard-hitting moments was the moment that I found out that
11:59Nigel White didn't exist and that he wasn't real because Nigel White's photo was actually a photo from Getty Images
12:06titled ginger man was such a brutal moment because he'd seemed to be a colleague that I could connect
12:16with and I was looking forward to being friends with and he had been trying to talk to me I was
12:21basically catfished by someone pretending to be him and made it seem just all quite sinister
12:25how did you feel telling people it was tough to be honest I wanted to apologize to everyone on
12:34LinkedIn that I spoke to like 3,000 people I've connected with on LinkedIn about something that's
12:41not even real and trying to get money out of them really did you get paid anything never got paid
12:48anything at all nothing nothing did they take any money from me they never took any money no in my
12:54head at the time I was I've wasted six months where minimum wage would have got me over eight grand and
13:00I got nothing to have gone months at mad bird without pay still paying off mortgage paying off loans it
13:08leaves you in this deep hole in effect do you know how much it cost you that was racked up to ten grand
13:14this is something that has taken a lot of planning and executing how this much effort has been put
13:22into doing something that is ruining lots of people's lives when you could just do it legitimately at
13:29this point no one knows who was behind all this including us where the idea came from I'm not quite sure
13:36it could have come from Tommy in some form I never met Tommy it's just his name lives on everything but I
13:43think I and Tommy are both the two people who know exactly what was behind everything where did this
13:49idea come from because it's so far-fetched it just is like a rabbit hole who has put this much effort in
14:00to try and dupe hard-working good people during a pandemic they took advantage of people at their lowest
14:08I guess one of the biggest like questions for me is what was the point that's what you guys to find
14:15out okay so this story is mad we'd found out that more than 50 people had worked for mad bird
14:26and the entire backstory of this company could be fake that bombshell email sent by jane smith who
14:36nobody had even heard of revealed that nigel white and many more staff members were not real we needed
14:43to track down the people who were actually in these photos in the mad bird brochure first and probably most
14:52importantly dave stanfield mad bird's co-founder and managing director is not real his headshot turned
15:00out to be a photo of someone completely different if you put the image through a facial recognition
15:07scanner it comes back as a guy called michael kalish
15:17hi michael how are you well i'm good thank you how are you nice to see you i recognize your face
15:26it's me dave so this is dave stanfield or we thought it was dave stanfield
15:32but it's not it's you yeah that's me so i'm michael kalish uh i'm from slovakia i live in prague i used
15:44to be an ios developer and now we are building beehives with my brothers
15:53to be clear mad bird's co-founder didn't exist and that left the question who was pretending to be dave
16:01stanfield because we had emails and linkedin messages to mad bird staff from this dave stanfield
16:08and he's a made-up person so someone had to be writing them can't wait to meet all you dog devils
16:15in person then there was brand growth partner sam mitchell his photo was actually of bernardo acuyo
16:23an actor from spain graphic designer jennifer evans her photo had also been stolen from someone
16:30completely different so there it is i'm definitely not a graphic designer i'm a health and safety
16:38consultant it is the great mystery of this story the lengths that someone has gone to obviously your
16:45photo is is one small element but even to retrieve that was was was work and it's that times a thousand
16:55at the moment i cannot comprehend
17:01of the top creative team six of them were identities that had been ripped off the internet
17:07never worked at mad bird this left three people we knew were real who we absolutely needed to talk to
17:15ali ayad mad bird's founder and creative director who'd interviewed everyone tommy ray jr also named as
17:23creative director mad bird was on his cv along with real work for real design agencies and finally
17:30simona chakajaneva she did everyone's first round interviews she lives in dubai and looks like a pretty
17:37good pianist what we wanted to know from simona is whether she was involved in the lies or a victim too
17:49and she agreed to a call with me hi catherine how are you we're looking into a company called mad bird
17:56one of the things we were trying to establish is who would have been i guess your bosses at mad bird
18:04the leadership team that was ali i also have communication with mr norman and tommy and mr dave as well
18:15is that a man called tommy ray jr yes and you had zoom meetings with dave stanfield yes okay so there
18:35was an email there was an email sent yes claiming that the projects there that they were on the
18:42website of mad bird are not done by the mad bird many companies do that they just fake their profiles so
18:49that they are going to grow the company the responsible person for the website was mr dave and that's what i know
18:57dave stanfield was responsible for the website yeah okay
19:16after all this happened the only person that i spoke with was ali and he didn't have answers because as far
19:24as i remembered they was not giving him answers what did ali say then when you asked him about what
19:32had happened well he looked very confused same as everybody else he was confused yeah look i don't have
19:45much time but i need to tell you one thing ali he really wanted this to work i don't think he's a bad man
19:53thank you bye
20:00simona was saying dave stanfield was responsible for the website containing stolen work she said she had
20:07zoom meetings with him but he doesn't exist our next call was with tommy ray jr
20:15just gotta figure out what to say to tommy now
20:16just like dave stanfield he was introduced as a boss at mad bird okay everyone ready
20:25rolling tommy ray jr
20:26i used to go down to the local pub on a wednesday night ali came across straight away as super strange
20:39he told me his name was ali after first saying it was alex he says yeah i'm a mormon from utah what he told you he was a mormon from utah yeah yeah the guy is a snake for sure i've never worked for mad bird by the way that's on the record
20:56he was trying to offer me a job at the top but i never accepted a job i never had an email address
21:09he was like i want to build an agency so i joined one zoom call to see if it was true i was astounded by how many people he managed to get on this call to show off
21:13one of the things i need to be very honest and clear about tommy is that you your name is all over this
21:29that is the most abhorrent thing i've heard in my whole life i've become his way to try and legitimize himself and i i feel used i really hope that all the world's energy and karma comes down on him
21:43we were confident tommy was not behind this con it was foolish and dishonest for him to put mad bird
21:54on his cv if he never worked there and he shouldn't have let himself be introduced as a creative director
22:00for the company but it looked like more than anything his name as a real designer was being used to give
22:06mad bird credibility what do you think yeah i mean it's a lot of information it makes me think that
22:16ali's weirder than i than we suspected yeah ali's not coming out of this well hey guys good morning
22:24uh i just wanted to share the view with you it's it's awesomely beautiful we knew ali iad was definitely
22:33in the uk and we had to speak to him on our first call with him he told us he was unwell it was
22:40impossible to know if this was true but the only thing to do was give him time to recover in case it
22:45was oh okay i'm sorry to hear that he was like okay um thank you very much for calling and letting
22:54me know you have a wonderful day while we waited to speak to ali we had to find out everything we could
23:01about him he has a massive instagram following he pretty much looks like an influencer all sorts
23:07of branded posts very significantly he claimed to have been in gq magazine
23:17so we have a lot of gq magazines so i am looking for this specific
23:26picture from this issue of gq see if ali i add it's on the inside
23:37he's not there it looks like he's photoshopped himself on the right hand side
23:45of this page which is november 2018 but he's changed the date at the bottom to june
23:522019 because that's when he's posted the instagram post and said he's in gq this month
23:59so it's pretty elaborate like one of the people we spoke to said oh he he
24:05did be one of the reasons i wanted to work with him because he was like a celebrity
24:09and this is like our first evidence that he's not mic check mic check one so we had a copy of ali i
24:18ad's linkedin profile and it was super impressive it said he'd worked at loads of prestigious firms
24:24one of them was a canadian company called sid lee uh yes we looked uh in many areas uh hr creative team
24:34finance and we have uh no relationship whatsoever with mr ayad ever so we said he worked in the dubai
24:43office is that possible that he was in a different office yeah i smile because we never had an office
24:49in dubai okay wow we were also checking out all the work mad bird's brochure claimed it had done
25:01one of the things was redesigning an entire website for another canadian company called seiko that makes
25:07massive led screens mad bird also had a big recommendation from their head of brand
25:13communications someone called jason carr no one in my organization has any idea these people are
25:22we have no idea who mad bird is or jason carr does he exist did he ever exist we've never had a jason carr
25:29work uh work uh for seiko and uh obviously not as a brand communication manager whatever they claim
25:37that he is because that's you that would be me
25:45we found so many companies that mad bird and ali iad had claimed to have done work for and hadn't
25:53regarding the names you shared we have found no employee records associated
25:57tommy and guy confirms that no project has been undertaken based on records we have and as far as
26:02we're aware ali iad was not i can't find any record of this company i wasn't able to find any records of
26:09us we have never heard of nor worked with mad bird before and then there was more for ali iad himself
26:16it turned out he never studied at the universities he claimed to have degrees from in fact get this the
26:23degrees he said he studied at these universities don't exist the university of southern california a
26:30place like no other then we had something big to deal with this pitch document was meant to be an
26:39example of mad bird's amazing work but our investigations had found it very closely matched
26:45another pitch document buried deep in the internet it had a completely different company's name on it
26:52hi a creative agency in london welcome to hatch
27:02it's very nice very real yes i've got some documents to show you do you want to see
27:09them yes please yeah so i've got two documents for you this one i believe is your work
27:16yeah this one that mad bird has been sending all right even the layouts the same
27:26yeah this is word for word yeah so that's a copy copy and paste i mean you've got this line that
27:34that was our strap line that we used your company brand communication for the independently minded yeah
27:41that's like someone's you know another brand saying just do it you know like and not being no
27:47how does it feel looking at this um yeah pretty sickening to be honest feels like we've been robbed
27:51that's what it feels like because this isn't like an overnight thing that we came up with like
27:55this is years of work to get to this particularly on this project as well we i think we had designers
28:01in the office till one two in the morning working on the concepts so was this ever sent to a client
28:08that was only purely used internally they sent it to clients they were trying to mag as examples and
28:15we also do know that they used it as a model yeah for other pictures yeah and they used your price list
28:22as an example price list for clients and that's what's devastating i suppose is the idea of this
28:27being out in the public domain they have used our buyers that from additional graphic designer
28:34background is far from which yeah that's andy's that's andy's uh mine from my buyer is it this
28:39one yeah yeah yeah if it involves a screen yeah yeah i mean if we could blend two of us it would
28:47be we'd only have to have one partner then there you go how they think they could get away with it
28:51it's yeah i mean it's blatant plagiarism definitely talk to our lawyers to see what we can do
28:57the weirdest thing about going into hatched was that it was the company ali thought he had and worse
29:07than that it was the kind of agency that everyone who worked at mad bird thought they were working for
29:13it was the office they thought they were going to work in one day
29:20while we were uncovering all this fakery we found even more victims
29:28so i described the event as to an extent traumatic the smiling face of somebody who i thought you
29:35know i can work with this guy he seems like a good leader and then to find out that's just
29:40a utter lie he's like to so many people you're making us believe like i was actually crying when
29:46i got this job because you know after so many months of looking for something can you hear me okay
29:52yeah i can hear you okay i can hear yeah they promised so much money and actually i even got
29:59two jobs and i turned them down because you were at my bed yes yes
30:07ali is a very cool he's a very cruel guy he's a despondent guy i left my job to join madrid ali promised me
30:15to after the six months probation that he would sponsor me a visa to go to england i didn't realize
30:23the sheer number of people working for mad bird from dubai so this is my apartment and stay in dubai
30:29i think we're gonna try and come out and meet people in person we had found 16 people who'd worked
30:39for mad bird in dubai there was a dubai office being set up ali made these people life-changing
30:46promises and the stakes for some were much higher
31:02hi all right welcome welcome to dubai when we did the interview uh ali kept saying you know um elvis you
31:13know i want you to come to the uk move in and work in our company uh in the uk and all that you'll
31:19have to do is achieve your target for six months it's it's a green signal for me to process your visa
31:24and to get you on board to the uk and for me to to get an opportunity like this uh was something that
31:31i couldn't believe for indian whose native language is not english for him to get a job in a uk-based
31:42company was something really really amazing how did it feel for you when you found out the truth
31:49of what happened it is a very devastating experience my my dreams just shattered so you were close to
31:57doing two deals in dubai what would have happened if you'd actually exchanged any money very serious i
32:06would be in bars for a minimum of six months and then they would deport me back to my country
32:11um so it is very very scary because the laws over here are very strict as if the money has been
32:18exchanged and if the if and if you have not offered what we promised you literally end up behind bars
32:25and i was basically stuck uh financially broke uh no visa uh with no hope at all
32:31i in fact i went to do i went into depression i would say after that
32:44another person i had to talk to while i was in dubai was antonia stewart she was the most senior
32:51person at madbird who'd agreed to speak to us she has years of experience working in marketing and joined
32:57madbird over a month before that jane smith email revealed all of the fakery it was also her job to
33:04finalize all the potential deals that the sales team had secured hi hi guys who's this this is tula
33:15hi tula nice to meet you antonia was in constant contact with ali when she worked at madbird
33:22and showed me pages of the emails they exchanged so i had sent an email to ali asking a ton of questions
33:29about madbird and he responded um basically saying madbird started with me tommy dave and sam along with
33:38a few designers developers that we've worked with from before yeah he obviously is talking extent
33:44extensively about dave stanfield here and dave does not exist he is not a real person
33:51ali was just you know went off on a whole story about dave and when they worked together at night
33:57and that he's camera shy you know he's he's giving him a personality here he was probably setting
34:02himself up for if i did push for a video call that dave would uh have his camera off
34:14what do you think it was that ali saw in you um i've been working in marketing for like around nine
34:21years worked with some high profile clients like mercedes-benz alfa romeo he asked a ton of
34:26questions about that at the time it just seemed normal but looking back now i'm i sort of get
34:32the feeling it was a case of oh taking down notes of how to run an agency he knew enough to to set
34:41everything up create all the fake websites and accounts and things but he didn't know enough to
34:47actually execute the first team he got on board with a sales team and they were obviously bringing
34:51in clients but then there was no people to do the work until i came and then my my marty managers
34:57came and my designers came how close was mad bird to doing a real deal with a company when that jane
35:06smith email was sent um i'd say we were probably like a week or so out we were very close given what
35:12you know now what do you think was the ultimate goal of all this first of all i think it could have been a
35:18fake it till you make it so and i think what their plan was to do was sort of start replacing this
35:25stolen work with legitimate work and it worked because look it got a team in and it got potential
35:32clients in too so it was working the second sort of route is just get investors and then run away with
35:38money if you could speak to ali now what would you say to him you shattered people's dream you shattered
35:48my dream don't do this to anyone else when i got back from dubai ali ayad said he would do an interview
35:59it was all set up but then he pulled out the day before and started to ignore me just up here we had
36:05been inviting him for an interview now for three months ali's house is next left we knew where he
36:13was living and it felt like we only had one option left not what we'd wanted to do
36:20i think this is the most nervous i've ever been ever for an interview because
36:25it's the biggest build-up to meet anyone i feel like i know him
36:34i feel like i know him really well
36:40i'm just seeing ali at the window putting a coat on
36:42okay
36:51is everyone okay what's happening
36:53let's come out
37:03hi ali ayad my name's katrin and i'm from the bbc
37:10come on it's time to talk to us ali why did you make up a fake company
37:15and then take advantage of people when they were their most desperate
37:20you must want to say sorry for what you did
37:25ali you said you were going to speak to us
37:27it's been months and months we've been asking you for an interview
37:33you must want to apologize to all the people that you tricked that you lied to
37:40they lost money ali this is your version of the story okay we have been waiting to hear your
37:45version of the story ali for months you don't know all the things behind the story you have heard
37:50one version of the story you need to see two sides of the story there's always a different side
37:55of the story i'm here to hear your side i told you i'm gonna tell you i'm gonna sit down with
37:59you and i will tell you but right not right now unfortunately not right now unfortunately i don't
38:03believe you do you know how badly you affected people with what you did all i know is that we
38:10created opportunity for people you didn't create any opportunities for anyone in the midst of covid
38:17and then we we in a very short period of time we created a lot of opportunities for people
38:23people to work that's what i know are you serious it was a fake company ali it's not
38:29a company what is a company what is a company you say a fake company what is a fake company
38:34ali your co-founder your co-founder is dave stanfield what is a company doesn't exist
38:40can you please tell me what is it who's dave stanfield ali yes it was a company made
38:43on company's health what is a company first all the work on your website was fake you know it's not
38:49nice i mean this is i know this isn't nice this is not what i wanted to do well fine i want to sit
38:54down with you and talk but not like this will you say sorry for what for the fact that you lied
39:00you saw people's identities come on i did i did yes i did how do you know this because we've been
39:09investigating mad bird for months okay and how do you know i did well who do you know are you saying
39:15it's someone else's fault you this is your story this is your story that's what you do in the news
39:19that's what you do you just you just point out something and then you just you know point the
39:24finger at people ali will you say sorry to the people who you hurt i'm sorry whose lives and time
39:29you wasted if i heard somebody if i heard somebody of course i'm sorry but i'm telling you there's
39:34another version of the story tell me one reason that you did this to people tell me one reason
39:39people deserve to know why it was an authentic company this company had people that worked in
39:48it and we had everything that that a company needs is your version of the story fake what is fake the
39:53company's registered it has an office we have we have to work with it what is this where's your
39:58office it's office it's a digital company it's a digital company you don't have an office we have
40:03an office but you don't really have to have computers and stuff right it's a digital company so
40:06where's your office where's your office it was registered and stream that was your house
40:13we genuinely want to hear your side of the story well give me a chance
40:18and you come outside just for a minute
40:30ali ayad never did come forward for an interview
40:33we put all of our accusations to him in writing he said he was going to respond but then didn't
40:39he did have a company in the most basic sense he also had a very talented team only jobless because
40:46of a pandemic but that company was built on lies other people's work and some sort of exaggerated
40:53sense of self-belief that you can talk your way to success without putting in any craft
40:59it nearly worked mad bird only existed online but then so do we half the time
41:05but mad bird and ali got found out
41:19once i'm caught by something it's pretty hard to get me to drop it so my partner was asking me to
41:42to slow down on the researching um because all the things that i was starting to
41:49think were going on obviously sound so ludicrous but it was impossible to drop so i actually went
41:55and then took my laptop and hid under some covers and kept going
42:10up next we find out just how far a man would go to fulfill his flump addiction in lazy susan
42:34not something i ever thought i'd say there then at 10 there's nothing worse than feeling like billy
42:38no mates at a party let alone people passing you off as the waiter it's starstruck
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