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Interview with Michael Cimino on Thunderbolt & Lightfoot
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CreativityTranscript
00:00What's your name, boy?
00:30At the time, before I made Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, John Milius began to write a script
00:56for Clint Eastwood for Dirty Harry, Magnum Force.
01:02But he never finished it, the reason being he was offered his first directorial job.
01:09I had just concluded a deal with Clint to do Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, and he had a shooting
01:19date set to begin Magnum Force.
01:22And he came to me and said, Michael, can you please finish this script for me, complete
01:27the screenplay?
01:29And I was distraught because I didn't know anything about that kind of movie.
01:37And Joanne Corelli, my producer on Heaven's Gate, said to me, Michael, you can't refuse Clint.
01:46You have to do it.
01:48And whatever you do, he will like it.
01:51And so I sat down.
01:54I began with the few pages that John had done.
01:59And I liked John very much.
02:00He's a friend.
02:02And somehow I managed to get through the screenplay.
02:06And Clint liked it.
02:09So he was shooting.
02:11He began shooting Magnum Force while I was looking for locations and preparing Thunderbolt
02:21and Lightfoot.
02:22And I would come back occasionally to San Francisco where they were shooting, and I would show him
02:27photographs of locations and various places, various ideas that I had.
02:33And great good luck.
02:38Magnum Force turned out very well and became the fastest grossing Dirty Harry movie in the
02:44history of Warner Brothers.
02:46Because they made several, but this one was the biggest grossing one.
02:51So it was a big help for Thunderbolt and Lightfoot.
03:01I never start a screenplay or a novel with an idea.
03:11I'm not motivated by an idea, a political idea or that doesn't interest me in fiction.
03:21I think the correct way to proceed is character.
03:27And I cannot begin to write until I have an idea for a character.
03:35And then I have to have the character's name.
03:37That's very important for me.
03:39Once I have the name and an idea for the character, once I can see the character, all I have to do is follow the character.
03:47I don't have to create or follow some plan or some outline that's artificial and say,
03:56oh, now he must go here, now he must go there, now he must accomplish this or that.
04:01I simply start with the character and make sure he has a name and the name is special and unique to the character.
04:09And then I begin.
04:10I actually began writing the story as a period story because there was in Ireland a Captain Thunderbolt.
04:24In fact, Joanna, the producer of Heaven's Gate, took a photograph of Thunderbolt's grave and gave it to me.
04:38And as I was trying to do it as my first film, an agent, a friend, advised me,
04:45Michael, don't make it as a period movie.
04:49I was going to set it in Ireland and so forth.
04:53And I said, make it contemporary.
04:56I said, contemporary?
04:57How can I do that?
04:58And in any case, I did.
05:01I made it contemporary and that's where the name came from, Thunderbolt and Lightfoot.
05:07And Lightfoot is, of course, an Indian name.
05:12And at that time, I was full of ideas to do a movie about the American Indian.
05:18And so Lightfoot came straight from that, Thunderbolt, came from Captain Thunderbolt.
05:27But it was, it really was a story of a man getting old who's lost his zest for life.
05:37A preacher in some little town, rural town.
05:42Brought back some extra goodies.
05:44And along comes this exuberant, freedom-loving kid, half his age, a footloose.
05:57And restores his youth, actually.
06:03Makes Thunderbolt young again.
06:05Listen, I just got out of a bed to come here, you know?
06:08And I don't intend to jump right back into one here.
06:13Oh, I forgot to tell you, Gloria is yours.
06:16And they become friends and they begin laughing together and hanging out with girls together
06:22and doing all sorts of things together.
06:24And so it's a story of the restoration of vigor and youthfulness into a man growing older
06:34by somebody who was younger.
06:36So let each of us study to approve ourselves to God through Jesus Christ.
06:45To direct Clint Eastwood was a daunting proposition because at the time, in 1974, Clint was the number
06:58one box office star in the world.
07:02And as a very young, inexperienced director, to accept a proposition to direct someone with
07:15that stature and that power, yes, it made you apprehensive.
07:25He was an actor with a certain presence, a powerful presence on the screen.
07:31I went like John Wayne, whom I met at the Oscars, had that magic, that chemistry.
07:42The minute they walked into a scene, into a room, they became the focus of everybody's attention.
07:50They were stars.
07:55It had nothing to do with their acting ability, they were just stars.
08:01And I had the good luck to make my first movie with Clint and extra good luck to receive my first Oscar
08:09from John Wayne, his last public appearance.
08:15And Clint has a wonderful capacity to give people chances that they've never had.
08:22He's made a lot of people who were camera operators, directors of photography.
08:27He's promoted a lot of people.
08:29He's helped a lot of younger people move into positions of influence on a movie.
08:37He's just, that's his nature.
08:40He has a very fine spirit.
08:43You know, he's very, Clint is very pure, I think.
08:49The best kind of American that I can think of.
08:58I think he embodies in his person and in his life much of what is best about the American people.
09:08And I think this is one of the reasons he became such a big star.
09:13Because of what he is like on the inside.
09:20Bacon, toast, coffee, and American fries.
09:24You got American fries here?
09:26Yes.
09:27American fries.
09:28Jeff hadn't done that many movies.
09:33And he was just a perfect complement to Eastwood, Bridges and Eastwood.
09:41They're almost the same height.
09:43Clint is very tall.
09:44He's about six foot four.
09:46Jeff is almost that tall.
09:48He's about six foot three.
09:49How are you feeling today, preacher?
09:51And they look good together.
09:55They felt good together.
09:57There was no need to rehearse with them.
10:02They were, these characters.
10:05Happily, they both accepted the project.
10:09I mean, Clint read the script.
10:10He said yes.
10:11Jeff read the script.
10:12He said yes.
10:13And I said to Jeff in the beginning, Jeff, you have only one job to do in this film.
10:24He said, what's that?
10:25I said, you have to make Clint Eastwood laugh.
10:28He said, what do you mean?
10:30I said, we have never seen him laugh on all of the movies he's done, all the westerns he's
10:37done, all the TV he's done.
10:39Nobody has ever seen Clint laugh.
10:43Your job is to make him laugh.
10:45And then Jeff laughed.
10:47And I laughed.
10:48And we went on and we made Clint laugh.
10:52Oh.
10:54Raccoon shit.
10:55Raccoon shit.
10:57Hang your hand out the window and let the rain get out of here.
11:01Raccoon shit.
11:02No, get out of here.
11:03Just remember not to pick your teeth.
11:05The crew loved the character so much of Lightfoot that at one point they came to me as a group.
11:21And they said, Michael, we took a vote.
11:24We don't want you to kill Lightfoot.
11:28We think that it would be a more successful movie if he doesn't die.
11:35I don't think about this criminal, do you know?
11:38I didn't go with their advice.
11:40I stuck to the script.
11:42Good job.
11:44It was the most important casting to do was to cast Thunderbolt and to cast Lightfoot.
11:51And without that, there was no movie.
11:54And then I chose people, for example, George Kennedy and Jeffrey Lewis, to play comedic roles.
12:04They had never played comedy, either of them.
12:07What are we doing now, Red?
12:11Shut up, Goody.
12:13Jeff Lewis had always played what they call in Hollywood a heavy, a criminal, a thug, a tough guy.
12:20Same with George Kennedy.
12:22He was always a big, tough guy.
12:24But here, they were just a fabulous comedy team, the two of them.
12:30They reminded me of Laurel and Hardy.
12:32There's one scene in the movie where, in order to make some money to get ready for the robbery,
12:43Jeffrey Lewis is driving an ice cream truck, a little ice cream truck.
12:48And George is with him.
12:51And Jeff is in a little white outfit with his cap on, ringing the bell.
12:56And they come down this funny little wagon.
13:00And George gets in the truck in a suit and he says to Jeffrey, you look ridiculous.
13:07And then some kid comes up to them on the street and says, you're on the wrong street.
13:13And you're supposed to go on the other street first and then come on the street.
13:20And George looks at the kid and says, look kid, go fuck a duck.
13:23Look kid, go fuck a duck.
13:26When he said that the audience collapsed with laughter.
13:30And when we were shooting it, the crew collapsed with laughter.
13:34And there was laughing so hard that the camera was shaking.
13:39And we couldn't, we had to make another take.
13:41I said, guys, please stop laughing.
13:43We had to do so many takes because they couldn't help laugh.
13:47Every time George said that line, look kid, go fuck a duck, everybody would crack up.
13:54So finally I got them to sit still.
13:58And they did.
14:00And we got to see them.
14:03And it's still, the memory of it still makes me laugh.
14:06You're the thunderbolt.
14:10Movies of fiction, just as novels of fiction.
14:17You're always using some part of yourself.
14:21Thunderbolt and Lightfoot.
14:23I don't care what anyone has to say in opposition to that idea.
14:27But you're always drawing on who you are and what you've done, the people you know.
14:34And you're using always parts of yourself to create a character.
14:41And just as Hemingway in all of his novels.
14:45If Hemingway hadn't volunteered for the Italian army, you wouldn't have, for whom, the bell tolls.
14:53If he hadn't hunted in Africa, you wouldn't have the snows of Kilimanjaro of the Dove and so on and so on.
15:01The best example I can think of and the clearest is the one where Jeff and Clint are hitching a ride.
15:12And this character comes along, crazy guy, in a beat up car.
15:19And he looks a little strange, a little demented, and he picks them up.
15:26And then as they're riding, he begins to, they begin to realize they're being poisoned by carbon monoxide,
15:36which is being pumped into the car.
15:38And this guy is laughing.
15:40And finally they stop to get out of the car.
15:44And the guy opens the trunk and takes out a gun.
15:47He begins shooting white rabbits, white bunny rabbits.
15:50And I remember when my lawyer saw this in Hollywood.
15:58He said, Michael, how did you come up with this idea?
16:02As a matter of fact, a leading critic from Time Magazine invited me to his house when the movie opened.
16:09I can't remember his name.
16:11He's very nice.
16:12I went to his brownstone in New York and he asked me that question.
16:17He said, how did you come up with this idea with these white rabbits?
16:21And he said, it's hilarious.
16:22I said, this is someone I know.
16:24He said, someone you know?
16:26I said, yes.
16:27I gave him the name, the fellow's name, I don't want to repeat it.
16:31And I said, that's what he used to do.
16:34He used to drive around with a trunk full of rabbits and pipe carbon monoxide into the car
16:41and see how long the people could take it.
16:45No one could believe that it was true.
16:48But it is true.
16:49It was true.
16:52The true things are always better than the things that purely come from your imagination.
17:00Glass head like all these nuts.
17:07I used to go to Clint every night and ask him, how did he like the footage that he was seeing?
17:15And he said to me very clearly, simply, Michael, he said,
17:20you have a unique ability to put scope on the screen.
17:25And he said, I've shot movies all over the world, which he had.
17:31And he said, beautiful locations, beautiful places.
17:36And I'm always incredibly disappointed when I see the film,
17:41because the films look like they were shot at the studio on a back lot with painted backdrops.
17:48He said, I just want you to keep doing what you do.
17:54Follow your script and just keep going.
17:57So that was a great compliment from such a big star at that time.
18:04And it was also a vote of incredible confidence in me.
18:11You know, it gave me a boost of energy to keep pushing.
18:17I mean, if I use a long shot, it's for a reason.
18:24A reason that has to do with the story, a reason that has to do with the characters,
18:29a reason that has to do with the sense of place.
18:32However, I do realize that many, many films are shot with extreme close-ups,
18:40even more so today than ever before, because it's the easiest way for people to shoot.
18:46And it, however, makes for an incredibly static movie.
18:50And you are also constantly aware, when you see a film made this way,
18:55that you're looking at pictures on a wall.
18:58It's like looking at two stills on a wall, but the stills speak.
19:05I'm not interested in that.
19:07To me, then there's no reason for it to be a motion picture.
19:11Motion pictures should be partially what the name suggests, motion pictures, moving pictures.
19:23Moving pictures should move.
19:26We got away with it.
19:30Mountain climbers have a saying,
19:34if you don't respect the mountain, the mountain will kill you, which is true.
19:40If you have no respect for it, you will die in the mountain.
19:44And many people have.
19:47And many mountains all over the world.
19:50I think we all have two places that are important to us.
19:55The place that we're born, the place where we are born,
20:00and then that's our home.
20:02But our spiritual home is not necessarily where we come from.
20:08The spiritual home can be anywhere in the world.
20:11It's that place where you have a unique relationship to the place, to the water, to the mountains, to the trees, to the rocks, whatever.
20:23And John Ford, for example, came from Maine, which is one of the eastern...
20:30It is, in fact, the easternmost state in the United States.
20:34You couldn't be more further from the west.
20:38But for him, he found a unique relationship with Monument Valley.
20:45And he set movies in Monument Valley even though it was supposed to be in Texas or somewhere else.
20:53The opening of The Searchers, for example.
20:56You see a doorway and you see a big logo on the screen, Texas 18 whatever, blah, blah, blah.
21:04And the camera goes through the doorway and you see Monument Valley.
21:07Monument Valley is not in Texas.
21:09And it doesn't matter.
21:12All of The Searchers is in Monument Valley and you accept it.
21:18That was his place.
21:20He had a special relationship with the Indians, the Navajo people, the reservation that was, and with the place itself.
21:31And he went back time and time and time again.
21:35The interesting thing about John Ford and Monument Valley is that nobody since Ford, who has gone back to Monument Valley to make a movie, has made a successful movie.
21:50The Valley says no.
21:53We don't give you our beauty.
21:55You don't respect us.
21:58It may sound like mystical nonsense, but I believe it's true.
22:05I mean, the American Indian tribes of the plains believed that all things were sacred.
22:17The rocks, the dirt, the trees, the air, the sky, the hail which falls from the sky, everything was sacred.
22:26And I think if you bring that to certain magical places, those places will reveal themselves to you.
22:38But if you don't have that relationship, if you don't feel in your heart that this is something special, if you don't respect the specialness of the place, the place is never going to reveal itself to you, ever.
22:55I want to walk in and buy a white Cadillac convertible.
22:58Actually, walk in and buy it.
23:00Cash.
23:01The fact that the movie doesn't date, the Thunderbolts and Lightfoot is not dated.
23:10Nor are any of my other movies dated.
23:15I don't know exactly why.
23:17I don't have an exact description of why they don't date.
23:28As many films do.
23:29There are many films that you see, three years later they look dated.
23:35I think it has to do with the emphasis on character.
23:40That because they're not artificially staged, I think because they're done in real places, because the characters become real to the audience, living and breathing people, they're not caricatures.
23:58I think when you make a caricature, that caricature is only going to last for a year or two before it becomes so obvious that you can't watch the movie anymore.
24:08I think, I would guess, that it has to do with the fact that the characters are so vivid that you watch the characters, you care about the characters.
24:23Even though in later films of the Deer Hunter and Heaven's Gate, even though they're about events where politics have played a role, I am not interested in the politics behind those events.
24:44I mean, the Vietnam War was just a fact for me.
24:48It existed, it happened, it destroyed lives, it destroyed families, it had the power to change many, many people's lives.
24:59But that was the extent to which, you know, I don't consider it a war movie, I don't consider it a Vietnam movie, I don't consider it any of those things.
25:08It's simply a story about a family, not with blood ties, but nevertheless a family.
25:14And what happens to a family under this incredible stress and trauma of war?
25:23It could be any war, it doesn't matter.
25:27It could be any war in history.
25:30What happens when someone dies in that family?
25:35What happens when someone in that family is maimed and made, incapacitated?
25:44What happens to people?
25:46That's what interested me.
25:50People interest me.
25:52Characters interest me.
25:53What they do and what they think and what they say interest me.
25:56But what they do is not meant to represent something other than what they do.
26:05I'm sure there are a lot of people who work, particularly a lot of French directors, work with an idea.
26:15I think Godard, probably René, people like that, had very specific intellectual ideas.
26:23I think the French cinema tends to be, or tended to be, during the New Wave or whatever one would like to call it, a cinema of ideas.
26:37More than a cinema of people.
26:39I think prior to that, when you had wonderful movies like Fond du Paradis and Carnival and Flanders, Beauty and the Beast, they weren't about ideas.
27:02They were about the characters.
27:05The Beauty and the Beast is such a simple, beautiful movie.
27:11I still love it because it's made so simply.
27:15The emphasis is on beauty and on the beast as characters.
27:21I mean, you believe implicitly in the beast.
27:25You believe in beauty.
27:27Beauty.
27:28It's magic, which is what cinema should be.
27:32And it's not meant to be an intellectual idea.
27:36It's not meant to represent something else.
27:39It's not meant as a metaphor for God knows what.
27:43Some politician has no political agenda.
27:47It's simply about magic.
27:48That's what intrigues me about movies, is magic.
27:57DoCamatha dead.
28:00And that part of the idea that people need rescuing spirits speaking in a disposition that feels asÃ.
28:04That's a thing about love.
28:05And our own soul.
28:07Thisrios' house.
28:08Well, here we are not today Oakley.
28:09Is it a dream of mercy?
28:11Well, he asked God does this.
28:12I do this for all.
28:14We are today.
28:15We are together.
28:16Very Part of the� in the Un gardens.
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