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Madni Halepoto
  • 7/5/2025
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00:00:00Stress is the difference between the things on your to-do list and your capacity to handle that to-do list.
00:00:06Anxiety is fretfully projecting and fearing that bad things are going to happen.
00:00:10Both things are probably at the worst point they've ever been since we've started keeping those records.
00:00:15Former ABC News anchor.
00:00:17Author of 10% Happier.
00:00:19Mr. Dan Harris.
00:00:20People who live the longest have strong relationships.
00:00:24Dose yourself with some discomfort.
00:00:26Go to that party.
00:00:27Accept the invitation.
00:00:30The number one health and wellness podcast.
00:00:33Jay Shetty.
00:00:34Jay Shetty.
00:00:35The one, the only Jay Shetty.
00:00:39At this point in time, it feels like we've talked about this topic for a long time, but it still feels like we have a slightly unhealthy relationship with it and somewhat a subconscious relationship with it.
00:00:51And I'm talking about stress.
00:00:53And it seems that year upon year, people's stress increases, people's variety of causes of stress increase.
00:01:02Even after the pandemic, we saw a different type of stress that we experienced.
00:01:08I wanted to get your thesis on how you feel about the state of stress at the moment.
00:01:14It's not good.
00:01:16I recently learned, this is embarrassing that I recently learned this, the difference, the specific difference between stress and anxiety.
00:01:24Hopefully I don't mangle this.
00:01:25But it's something like stress is the difference between the things on your to-do list and your capacity to handle that to-do list.
00:01:33The difference between the demands on you and your ability to meet those demands.
00:01:38And anxiety is a little bit more fretfully projecting forward into the future and fearing that bad things are going to happen.
00:01:45And so I think actually both things are probably at the worst point they've ever been since we started keeping those records.
00:01:54So from what I can tell, anxiety, depression, suicide, addiction, and loneliness are, according to the numbers I've seen, at unprecedented levels.
00:02:03Now, we haven't been keeping these statistics for that long.
00:02:07So I suspect when we were on the edge of World War II, things were worse.
00:02:12But in the modern era, things have not been worse from what we can tell.
00:02:18And I think a huge contributor to that is the pandemic that we just lived through.
00:02:25I sometimes describe it as a global unregulated experiment into what would happen when you deny people social connection.
00:02:32And put people in a state of deep uncertainty about the future and add into that political polarization, the noxious impacts of social media, which we were just talking about, war, climate change.
00:02:47And you have a very tough situation for individual minds.
00:02:51Which one's been the one that you feel you've heard about the most from the people that follow your podcast, that have read your books?
00:02:58Like, what's the stress that you think is weighing them down the most?
00:03:02I'm projecting a little bit here and guessing.
00:03:04But I sometimes think there's a difference between what people perceive to be the source of their stress or anxiety and what actually is driving it.
00:03:13So we might fasten on to things that are real, for sure.
00:03:17I mean, like work stress, economics.
00:03:20So there can be stress about the state of your job and then economic stress about the larger state of the economy.
00:03:25There's increasing stress around inequality and bigotry, increasing awareness of it.
00:03:31So the question is, are those the proximate causes for your stress or could there be subterranean contributors that you might not be aware of?
00:03:43So I think today's media environment, particularly social media, and I'm not anti-social media.
00:03:48We just talked about the fact that I recently went on it.
00:03:51But I think there are aspects of social media we need to be aware of.
00:03:54And too much comparing yourself to other people is, as you've talked about, the source.
00:04:01It's a really good source of unhappiness and stress.
00:04:04I think also if you're spending too much time staring at a screen, two things can happen.
00:04:08One, you can get a distorted view of the state of the world because the algorithms feed off of conflict and anger and outrage.
00:04:18They feed our anxiety.
00:04:20And then the other thing is, the more you're staring at the screen, the less time you're spending connecting to actual human beings.
00:04:26So I think this is the deepest contributor.
00:04:28We are, and this is to state the obvious, social animals.
00:04:31You hear this in every TED Talk.
00:04:33I think I said it in my own TED Talk, so I'm like deeply unoriginal here.
00:04:36We are social animals.
00:04:38We're designed to interact with other human beings.
00:04:40And yet everything about modern life militates against this basic, obvious fact.
00:04:45Everything drives us into our own information silos, into curating our own resumes and working on our own little homes.
00:04:54And all that can be beautiful.
00:04:56But when you overlook what we need, that is going to create stress and anxiety.
00:05:01And you might think it is observable things out in the world.
00:05:05And it probably is those things too.
00:05:07But I just wonder for many people whether it's this deeper contributor that they're not looking at.
00:05:11Yeah, I'm so glad.
00:05:12You've just made two really good distinctions there.
00:05:14I love the way you are sharing the research around the difference between anxiety and stress.
00:05:19And going back to that for a second, that example you gave of having your to-do list and feeling like you don't have the capacity.
00:05:29It sounds like what you're sharing is that there's a capacity challenge and then also a control challenge.
00:05:34And when you're naming all those things external to us, there's a feeling of, I can't control any of those things.
00:05:40All of those things are uncertain.
00:05:43And therefore, I'm dealing with constant states of change.
00:05:46And that, in effect, creates a sense of stress.
00:05:50And to some degree, if I'm forward projecting, then anxiety as well.
00:05:54When I think about all of that, and I love what you just said about actually getting to the root of it,
00:05:59because I think you're spot on that we often discover a new symptom.
00:06:04And there will always be a new thing we'll discover every day that causes or triggers stress
00:06:09because there'll be a new change, a new uncertainty, a new thing we can't control.
00:06:14But at the core of it, you've highlighted this need for connection and this need for belonging
00:06:20and this need for human touch, both physical and mental and emotional,
00:06:27that we seem to be feeling further and further away from.
00:06:32I was talking about this with my best friend today, who I speak to probably like three or four times a week.
00:06:38And it's the person I probably speak to the most in the entire world.
00:06:41And he was my best man at my wedding.
00:06:43He introduced me to spirituality.
00:06:45So we have a long history of 18 years of a friendship.
00:06:48So he knows me very well.
00:06:49And we still talk three to four times a week.
00:06:50He lives in London, I live in LA, and we still find a time to connect.
00:06:54And that's mainly because he always makes time and he's very kind.
00:06:58And I often think about it in that I don't know how I would navigate life without that friendship.
00:07:04Because of having someone who understands me deeply, someone who allows me to be seen,
00:07:08someone who allows me to be flawed and imperfect, yet allows me to process all of that,
00:07:15is so profoundly needed, but it required certain deposits that had to happen 18 years ago in order to get there.
00:07:24Do you find human connection is easier with people you've known for a long time?
00:07:29Or have you found it to be building new relationships and new friendships?
00:07:33What have been the pros and cons of the ways you've navigated both of those?
00:07:36One of the things that I really try to do in my work is move away from abstractions or cliches or big ideas
00:07:46and get really practical about how you can actually act on these things.
00:07:51Because it's easy to scroll on Instagram or read a book or hear a TED Talk and you hear these inspirational notions
00:07:57like we're built for connection and we need belonging and you need to invest in relationships.
00:08:02And then what do you do about it?
00:08:05I couldn't agree more.
00:08:06And so I think about that a lot.
00:08:07And I think you just gave us an example.
00:08:10You made a deep friendship 18 years ago, but it's not enough to just have a connection with somebody.
00:08:18You need to invest in it over and over and over again.
00:08:22That's true for any level of deep relationship.
00:08:25It's true, I would imagine, with your wife.
00:08:27I mean, you've written a whole book about this, so I'm not talking to you like you don't know
00:08:30what you're talking about.
00:08:31But I just think you're giving a great, concrete example of one little thing you can do, which
00:08:38is figure out who you like and then make an investment in that person and hopefully a few
00:08:44other people consistently over time because the rewards are huge.
00:08:49And this isn't just like a nice to have.
00:08:52I know you're familiar with this research, but the study that comes up for me all the
00:08:56time is this study that was done that's still ongoing at Harvard University.
00:09:00It's overseen now by Robert Waldinger.
00:09:03And the idea is that they've been following several generations of people who live in the
00:09:08Boston area to see what contributes to a long life, longevity, health, happiness.
00:09:15And what comes screaming out of 80, 90 years of data is that the people who live the longest
00:09:21have strong relationships.
00:09:24And what's the mechanism for that?
00:09:26Stress is what kills us.
00:09:27You started this whole conversation with the idea of stress.
00:09:30Stress is what kills us most of the time.
00:09:33And the best way to reduce stress is to have positive relationships.
00:09:37Waldinger has this great expression, never worry alone.
00:09:40And that's what you're doing three times a week with your buddy.
00:09:44And there are obviously things you can talk to your wife about, of course.
00:09:46But the whole and again, again, you know, all of this, but you can't, you can't, your
00:09:51wife can't be the alpha and omega.
00:09:53Your wife can't be everything to you.
00:09:55And again, there's data to support this contention, too, that the strongest marriages or romantic
00:09:59relationships in those relationships, the the participants have other relationships that
00:10:06support it, you know, that that you're getting certain needs filled through your best friend.
00:10:11And yeah, so I just go back to what you said.
00:10:14That seems to be a direction that people can move in when they're trying to think about
00:10:19how to operationalize this stuff in their own life.
00:10:21Yeah, no, and I'm glad that you brought it to this.
00:10:24And I genuinely couldn't agree with you more.
00:10:27And that's that's why I've always wanted to talk to you is this idea of, well, how do we
00:10:31actually do that?
00:10:32Because these big ideas and big concepts often, as you said, I give you that short
00:10:38term inspiration, but then it doesn't translate into any discipline or habit or creation of
00:10:44a routine or rhythm that's allows us to repeat it and make it real.
00:10:49And so let's let's kind of sewn in on that for some of the points you made.
00:10:52One of the things you talked about, of course, is social media.
00:10:56And the truth is that all of us are in some way, shape or form addicted to this.
00:11:04It's designed to make us addicted.
00:11:06It's not that we're addicted because we have some flaw or some weakness or because we're
00:11:11not, you know, because we're alone.
00:11:14I think a lot of us share this.
00:11:15I've found myself doom scrolling.
00:11:18I found myself wasting hours and hours on social media feeling like I didn't achieve anything
00:11:23or gain anything from it.
00:11:25So no one's immune to this.
00:11:27I don't think there's a select few people who've beaten it.
00:11:30I think it's, it's consumed all of us.
00:11:32What have been the practical steps that you maybe have put in place for yourself, people
00:11:36that you know in your life that you think have actually helped people develop a healthy
00:11:40relationship?
00:11:41Because I think it's also not just like saying, well, just don't be on your phone, which
00:11:45is often, again, one of these big ideas that's portrayed, which is like, well, just turn
00:11:49it off or, you know, don't be on it.
00:11:50And we know that that's not sustainable either.
00:11:53Like we're both carrying our phones today.
00:11:54Yes.
00:11:55First of all, you said this thing about how you have struggled with social media.
00:11:59I just want to add that I have too.
00:12:01I mean, I just started, as we've discussed, and I can't tell you how many times I've gotten
00:12:06sucked into either scrolling and looking at things that, I mean, you know, I'm, I'm, I could
00:12:12be like talking to my child during that time.
00:12:14Or, and this is even more embarrassing, you know, compulsively checking back to see how
00:12:18a specific video is performing.
00:12:20And, and so, yeah, I'm, I, I don't come to this conversation with any superiority.
00:12:25I also think, and I will get to some things that have been useful for me, but I also want
00:12:31to say that I'm not against social media.
00:12:34I think there are beautiful aspects to it.
00:12:36I think there are also very difficult aspects.
00:12:38And we can talk about that if you want, but it is popular, not only for the negative aspects
00:12:44for it.
00:12:44And I think it's, you know, you can get some degree of pleasure through social media for
00:12:50sure.
00:12:50And I think it's true just for any dopamine hit in our life.
00:12:53You can get addicted to anything that is the source of fleeting pleasure from food to cocaine,
00:13:00to, uh, uh, alcohol, to gambling, to shopping, and there's healthy use, healthy, uh, involvement
00:13:07in all of these activities and then unhealthy.
00:13:09And it really just depends on the circumstances of your own brain, your own life.
00:13:14Uh, and it's a thing everybody has to work on for themselves as it, as it pertains to like
00:13:19practical things that work for me with technology addiction.
00:13:22One is just being pretty disciplined about putting it away at a, you know, usually at
00:13:29the end of the day, I try to put it away and have a proper evening with my family.
00:13:35Don't always succeed at that, but I notice when I do it, I feel better.
00:13:39And that leads to the second piece of advice, which is, as you know, I'm a big advocate of
00:13:44meditation as are you.
00:13:46And I think the self-awareness that can be generated through contemplative exercises like
00:13:50meditation can help wake you up to the fact that you will feel better if you don't get
00:13:57sucked into your phone for, you know, prolonged periods of time.
00:14:01And, uh, that can, the brain is always looking for pleasure.
00:14:05And if you can show the brain that there's what my friend Jud Brewer calls a bigger, better
00:14:09offer, which that it, which is that it will feel better to connect to your family most of
00:14:14the time, because sometimes our families are annoying, but it will feel better to connect
00:14:18to other people, to, uh, read a book, to take a walk in nature than it will to, uh, uh, you
00:14:27know, um, attach your arm to the IV drip of FOMO that, uh, that social media can be.
00:14:33Um, and so I think, I, I think meditation is a great way to do that.
00:14:38Um, the final thing is see if you can ask yourself this question.
00:14:42And I get this from a woman named Catherine Price who wrote a book that I recommend called
00:14:46How to Break Up With Your Phone.
00:14:48And she encourages people to ask themselves to try to get in the habit of asking themselves
00:14:51a very simple question when they're, when they find their zombie arm reaching for the
00:14:56phone.
00:14:56What do you need right now?
00:14:58Like what, what need are you trying to fulfill when you pick up that phone?
00:15:03For me, it's often because I'm bored or I'm in an uncomfortable situation or I'm tired
00:15:08and I don't have the wherewithal to do something or I'm lonely or I'm hungry.
00:15:12And actually, if you run that program, you run that algorithm internally for yourself,
00:15:18you know, you're, you're only going to remember this 10% of the time, but if you can remember
00:15:22to do it some percentage of the time and ask yourself, what, what is it that I'm actually
00:15:26going for here?
00:15:27You might realize actually the phone is not what I need right now.
00:15:30And for me, I found that really helpful.
00:15:32Doesn't work all the time, but it helps.
00:15:34I sometimes joke that if anybody said to me the types of shit that I say to myself, I
00:15:39would be punching that person in the face.
00:15:41So what can we do about it?
00:15:43What I've learned is that you can get into the habit of talking to yourself the way you
00:15:47would talk to a friend.
00:15:48And there are some hacks that make this easier.
00:15:51One of them is to actually, what need are you trying to fulfill when you pick up that phone?
00:15:57For me, it's often because I'm bored or I'm in an uncomfortable situation or I'm tired and
00:16:02I don't have the wherewithal to do something or I'm lonely or I'm hungry.
00:16:06Ask yourself, what, what is it that I'm actually going for here?
00:16:09You might realize actually the phone is not what I need right now.
00:16:12The way that that worked for me was having to remind myself after I made the right decision.
00:16:20So what I mean by that is if I'm going to reach for my phone right now and I have the courage enough
00:16:29to not reach for it, but I end up spending time with my family as the bigger, better offer.
00:16:36Now, after I've spent time with my family and I've enjoyed it, this time they're not annoying.
00:16:41Then after I do that, I need to deeply code that into my memory.
00:16:46Like I need to make a deal out of it.
00:16:48Like I need to tell my friend about it.
00:16:50I need to journal about it.
00:16:51I need to record it.
00:16:52I need to take a picture, whatever it is.
00:16:55Because what I've found is that the mind needs to be reminded, again, when I reach for the
00:17:01phone, that the bigger, better offer will win.
00:17:03But that memory doesn't get stored deep enough for us to be able to rediscover it when we most
00:17:09need it.
00:17:09Yes.
00:17:10And so that's definitely helped.
00:17:11And I loved what you said a couple of seconds ago about being able to switch it off.
00:17:15I fail at this all the time, but I've at least set the rules.
00:17:20And I think that's what we have to do with this because it is hard.
00:17:24But a few years ago, I set no technology times and no technology zones in my home.
00:17:31So I almost envisioned a no phone sign in the bedroom and at the dining table.
00:17:38And at one point, I used to envision like lasers around a room.
00:17:41And it's like, if I walked past it with my phone, then, you know, whatever.
00:17:45The floor is lava.
00:17:45Like Mission Impossible.
00:17:46Yeah.
00:17:46Yeah.
00:17:46Like Mission Impossible.
00:17:47Like just to give that feeling.
00:17:48And yes, of course, have I walked through a laser with my phone?
00:17:52Of course I have.
00:17:54But I like the idea of knowing that, look, there are certain rooms in my home where technology
00:17:58is not the space.
00:17:59So actually, if I want to use my phone, I have to leave that room to use it.
00:18:03And like you're saying about leaving your phone in another room or whatever it may be, I think
00:18:08is really powerful.
00:18:09One thing you brought up, which I actually think is at the crux of so much of this, and
00:18:15you mentioned the word you've been embarrassed sometimes in your social media usage.
00:18:19And I find that to actually be one of the deepest roots of the challenges we have with change and
00:18:28habit, or even with meditation.
00:18:30Like I think, as you know, you've been teaching meditation for years, as have I, and when I
00:18:36first started meditating, and even now, when my attention is not as present as it can be,
00:18:43or I'm not as focused, or I'm distracted, which still happens today after all these years
00:18:47of meditating, it's so easy to feel embarrassed, or ashamed, or guilty.
00:18:53And we can often start to develop an inner critic that can say some of the most hurtful
00:18:59things.
00:19:00Like, I'll often say to myself, like, come on, man, you've been meditating for 18 years
00:19:03now.
00:19:04How are you still distracted?
00:19:05Or, you know, you've been, you know, by now you should have been an expert because you're
00:19:10surrounded by so many experts.
00:19:12Or what's wrong with you?
00:19:13Like, oh, how can you teach meditation if you can't meditate deeply?
00:19:17Like, you know, whatever it may be.
00:19:19And it's so easy to get into that space.
00:19:21And one thing that I came across recently for myself was recognizing that you can't hate
00:19:26yourself into change.
00:19:28Like, you can't guilt yourself into growth.
00:19:30You can't make yourself feel so guilty that you'll suddenly achieve your goal.
00:19:35There almost needs to be grace.
00:19:37There needs to be kindness.
00:19:38There needs to be a safe space for you to have imperfections.
00:19:42So I wanted to ask you, like, what have you done with that emotion of feeling embarrassed?
00:19:45Because I actually think meditation is powerful for helping us overcome embarrassment.
00:19:50But I'd love to approach that with you.
00:19:52Well, I've had the same thoughts of, you know, I don't know if you've experienced this, but,
00:19:56you know, once you step out into the world as, like, something approaching a self-help
00:20:01person, as soon as you're an asshole, you tell yourself a story about how, like, you're
00:20:05a total fraud.
00:20:06Like, the first day you screw up, you know, you're like, all right, well, I got to close
00:20:10this whole business.
00:20:12I can relate to that.
00:20:13Yeah, I'm sure.
00:20:15I mean, I, and I think it goes to something really important, which is personal growth,
00:20:20spiritual development, whatever you want to call it, is hard and messy.
00:20:24And perfection is not an offer.
00:20:26And I think just knowing that and even hearing Jay Shetty talk about making mistakes and getting
00:20:32his shins cut off by a laser as he walks into the bedroom with his phone is useful because
00:20:39people need to know it's not a straight, unbroken, upward trajectory.
00:20:45That's, that's not what this is.
00:20:47That's not what this is about.
00:20:48There's a great tweet, or I guess we call them exes now or whatever, whatever.
00:20:53There's a great ex, yeah.
00:20:54There was a great ex the other day from a, a, a, a Zen Roshi, Roshi Joan Halifax.
00:21:00She's this incredible human being.
00:21:02And she posted a picture that was basically a bunch of squiggly lines, just going nowhere.
00:21:08And then she, the caption was, the path.
00:21:11That's the thing.
00:21:13We are, this is messy.
00:21:15We are messy animals.
00:21:16And, and that's okay.
00:21:17And, and I, what I think is important to know is that growth is possible, but it is impossible
00:21:23without making a bunch of mistakes.
00:21:24And if you can get that into your head, you're, you're better off.
00:21:29So how do you get that into your head?
00:21:30There's a bunch of research that I've become increasingly interested in about the possibility
00:21:35of reprogramming your inner dialogue.
00:21:39We, most of us have really nasty inner weather.
00:21:44You know, I sometimes joke that if anybody said to me, the types of shit that I say to
00:21:48myself, I would be punching that person in the face.
00:21:51And yet I talk to myself in a quite a scathing, venomous way.
00:21:56And I know this is not unusual.
00:21:59So what can we do about it?
00:22:00Well, you can get into the habit.
00:22:03You can develop.
00:22:03And again, this is a data and evidence-backed assertion.
00:22:06I'm not making, just making this up, nor is it an original observation.
00:22:09But what I've learned is that you can get into the habit of talking to yourself the way
00:22:14you would talk to a friend and there are some little hacks that make this easier.
00:22:19One of them is to actually refer to yourself by your name.
00:22:24So Jay, I know, uh, you just got distracted in meditation, but dude, as you know, getting
00:22:32distracted is a part of meditation.
00:22:33If, if it was possible to clear your mind, um, then, um, we'd have lots of people walking
00:22:39around with no thoughts, but that, that isn't possible.
00:22:42What is possible is to focus your mind for a few nanoseconds at a time and then start
00:22:46again and again and again.
00:22:47And we are very good at taking advice from, or at giving advice to other people, but not
00:22:52taking our own advice.
00:22:53And so this technique, which is called distant self-talk, where you use your own name to create
00:22:59some distance can allow you, Jay, or me, Dan, to give ourselves the advice that we're so
00:23:06willing to give other people and then actually to hear it.
00:23:09And does that make sense?
00:23:10Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:10No, that resonates, that resonates so deeply.
00:23:14And I actually feel that makes complete sense because even the negative of that is true.
00:23:19And so I was reading just a couple of weeks ago, maybe around how the two ways we talk
00:23:26to ourself negatively are either I am.
00:23:29So we say things like I am lazy or I'm so, I'm not good enough for, uh, I'm the worst,
00:23:35or, you know, I'm the least intelligent out of all my friends or whatever it is, right?
00:23:39I am statements.
00:23:41And the other one they were saying, which was even worse, was we have a voice in our head
00:23:46that sounds like an authority figure that says you're the worst or, and you aren't good
00:23:51enough or you're behind or whatever it may be.
00:23:54And that almost sounds like there's an external authority, whether it could have been a teacher
00:23:58or a parent, a family member who may have said that to us.
00:24:01And now it's internalized as a negative authority in our minds.
00:24:05And so what you're actually saying is the positive authority also works that if someone
00:24:09says your name, Jay or Dan, and then coaches you and guides you through that, would you
00:24:14say that that's a skill that you have harnessed and nourished through meditation, or do you
00:24:19see that as separate to meditation?
00:24:21I think it's absolutely complimentary.
00:24:23You know, as you know, in meditation, you are, one of the benefits is that you're more
00:24:27self-aware.
00:24:28You're, you're more aware of all of these wild thoughts careening through your head.
00:24:32And so it's easier to wake up now.
00:24:35I mean, I get lost in, you know, homicidal fantasies and, you know, unspeakable fantasy,
00:24:42other kinds of fantasies.
00:24:43That's just the mind.
00:24:45But I'm more likely now to have some self-awareness.
00:24:49I mean, another word for that is mindfulness, to be able to see what's happening between my
00:24:53ears, behind my eyes without necessarily being caught up in it.
00:24:56And so the sooner I can wake up to the fact that I'm in the middle of a jag of self-judgment
00:25:02then I can bring in these other tools.
00:25:05Oh yeah.
00:25:05You know what I need to do right now is have a, a talk between the sane part of myself
00:25:11and the insane part of myself.
00:25:13And as you said before, the, the, the inner critic comes to the ball masquerading as wisdom,
00:25:19but it's not wisdom.
00:25:21It's, it's the, it is your ancient fears and it is the dysfunction of the larger culture.
00:25:31So you might be telling yourself you need to look better.
00:25:34Well, that's not your voice.
00:25:36That is as, uh, to invoke another amazing person, um, Sonia Renee, what am I?
00:25:42Uh, Sonia Renee Taylor, I believe is her name.
00:25:44I'm, I'm embarrassed that I'm forgetting her last name, but she's a, uh, a great writer.
00:25:49And she said something to the effect of when I see self-criticism, I realize it's not my
00:25:54voice.
00:25:54It's the voice of the system.
00:25:56And so you're, you're telling yourself you don't look good.
00:25:59Well, who's by whose standards?
00:26:01It's the culture standards.
00:26:02And I have two modes that I'm least proud of.
00:26:05One is, um, greedy and the other is, um, angry, angry.
00:26:10And as over time, I've learned to actually have some affection for these modes because
00:26:15it's just the organism trying to protect itself.
00:26:18It's just my ancient fear-based patterns doing their best.
00:26:24Usually, you know, like they're, it's a five-year-old's version of doing their best to protect this
00:26:29body, but I don't need to listen to them.
00:26:32In fact, the radical disarmament is to actually make friends with them to kind of high five
00:26:36those demons instead of trying to slay them.
00:26:38And for me, that's been really useful.
00:26:41And, and just to get it back to your question, combining these, I would say, modern psychological
00:26:45tools with ancient contemplative tools has really been helpful.
00:26:50Absolutely.
00:26:51Yeah.
00:26:51I love, you just reminded me of making that point about the system that you quoted there
00:26:55reminds me of years, years, years, and years ago.
00:26:59I was, when I was a student in London and I remember walking through, you know, like a department
00:27:03store and there was a big advert that said, get the natural look.
00:27:08And then it was like all these things that products that can help you get the natural
00:27:12look.
00:27:12And just that idea of purchasing a natural look is, is fascinating because.
00:27:18As if you weren't born with one.
00:27:19Yeah, exactly.
00:27:20And, and, but it is that voice, right?
00:27:21Saying, okay, well, even to get a natural look.
00:27:24And again, you know, I think there are pros and cons.
00:27:27I mean, yeah, I'm a, I'm a big fan of so many products, so many services, so many things.
00:27:31And so it's not to say it's all bad, but there is a need in mindfulness to, I think what you're
00:27:37saying is to differentiate and have the ability of discernment between, is this voice me or
00:27:46is this something outside of me, whether it's a system or a person or whatever it may be.
00:27:50And I think that's the quality that we need because it isn't necessarily saying, I'm just
00:27:55going to shut everything off and nothing matters.
00:27:56It's this idea of, can I tell, can I tell that when I'm listening to the voice in my head
00:28:02as to whether it's truly mine or whether it's being picked up or nurtured by some other external
00:28:09force?
00:28:10Another fascinating question is, what is me?
00:28:14Close your eyes and look inside.
00:28:16Can you find some core nugget of J?
00:28:18And spend some time with that question.
00:28:21That'll pop you out of ruminating about lots of other unhealthy things.
00:28:26Where has that question taken you?
00:28:28I think you, I think, I think you come more out of the Hindu tradition.
00:28:31Yes.
00:28:31And I come a little bit more out of the Buddhist tradition, even though I don't look like it.
00:28:35But, you know, that's, that's where I've spent the last 15 years of my life really doing a lot
00:28:41of study.
00:28:43And one of the things they say in Tibetan Buddhism is that the not finding is the finding.
00:28:51Because there's nothing to find.
00:28:54Yes, I mean, on the convention, on the level of consensual, conventional reality, I'm Dan
00:28:59and that camera's taking a picture of me.
00:29:01And yes, that is true.
00:29:02But on the deepest possible level, if I look for some core nugget of Dan, there's nothing
00:29:08to find.
00:29:08And that not finding is the answer.
00:29:12And if, can you stay with that ambiguity, there is something healing about that.
00:29:18So how, how do you take that out of the esoteric clouds into your actual life?
00:29:22Well, one little linguistic trick, you kind of, you kind of teed me up for this before,
00:29:25because you, you use the phrase, I am, like I am so and so.
00:29:30So what if you just, and again, this is, I want to give credit to the person who came
00:29:34up with this, it's Joseph Goldstein, who's a great meditation teacher, but he often advises
00:29:38his students to say, instead of, I am fill in the blank, there is fill in the blank.
00:29:45There is hunger right now.
00:29:46There is anger in my mind right now.
00:29:49There is sadness in my mind right now.
00:29:52There's no you to find.
00:29:54The adding of the you on top of it is just adding insult to injury, right?
00:30:00You don't, that's extra, but that it's true that hunger or anger or sadness can be here
00:30:06right now.
00:30:06But if you can take the I am out of it into the there is, well, then it's workable, right?
00:30:11You can do something with it.
00:30:12You can let it pass.
00:30:13You can observe it.
00:30:14You can try to work with it.
00:30:15But if you add in a whole story about how I, Jay or I, Dan, I mean, curably fill in the
00:30:20blank, well, that, that's much, that's a much bigger problem.
00:30:23Nothing can happen until you identify the problem.
00:30:26If I am dismissing something out of hand, it's usually something I should listen to.
00:30:32And if I'm getting defensive, it's because there's something I know I should hear that
00:30:36I'm unwilling to hear at that moment.
00:30:38Meditation is a great way to like pound this stuff into your neurons.
00:30:42It's interesting though, isn't it?
00:30:43Because it feels like we're all so obsessed with identity in our stories.
00:30:48And almost what you're proposing is this idea of recognizing that there's somewhat of a
00:30:54distance between us and our identity and story.
00:30:58Yet, everything we've been discussing today, whether it's social media, whether it's the
00:31:03system, whether it's the story your parents laid out for you, all, all of that, there's,
00:31:08there's stories to be lived, crafted, told, and almost we're all living our own stories
00:31:12in our own mind.
00:31:13And so, yeah, how are you able to operate as Dan Harris, the teacher, the guide, the,
00:31:19you know, podcaster, et cetera, and then also have the, the balance of this recognition
00:31:26that actually there is, and there is no I am.
00:31:28Well, can I turn it around?
00:31:29Of course.
00:31:30Like my last retreat was six to nine months ago.
00:31:34I've got one coming up.
00:31:35So I'm like further and further away from sanity.
00:31:37Uh, but you are much fresher.
00:31:40Like you've just come out of a retreat.
00:31:41How do you balance that?
00:31:44There's an understanding of the needs and interests of the different vehicles in which
00:31:52I live.
00:31:53So the body being one vehicle and the body has certain needs in order to operate and
00:31:59in order to function.
00:32:01And then the mind has certain needs and awareness that it will easily be a support or an, as
00:32:11the Gita says, the best friend of the worst enemy.
00:32:14So recognizing again, as you said earlier, the befriending of the mind requires an awareness.
00:32:20And then at a deeper level, looking at our emotions, looking at our spiritual or consciousness
00:32:28connection.
00:32:29And so to me, it's the outlining and awareness of the needs for that specific vehicle,
00:32:36but not falling into the trap of believing the vehicle is me.
00:32:42And the balance comes from recognizing using there is is beautiful, actually, but recognizing
00:32:48that there are needs for each aspect that need to be taken care of, but that one should
00:32:55not accept each of them to be oneself.
00:32:57And I think for me, that comes in the form of having to remind myself of that which is
00:33:04beyond the physical self, because it's easier to get connected and identify with the physical
00:33:12self than it is with the non-physical self, because the non-physical self is intangible.
00:33:17It's unseen.
00:33:18We're unaware of it.
00:33:19We don't live in a society that reminds us of it.
00:33:21I was thinking about this while I was actually at the monastery.
00:33:23So the monastery doesn't have mirrors.
00:33:25And that was something I've talked about before, where you lose your sense of your physical
00:33:29self.
00:33:30Like while I lived there, I didn't really, I forgot deeply what I look like.
00:33:34And so if I was out on the streets, when I was traveling, I would always try and look
00:33:38at my reflection in a, you know, in a shop window, whatever it may be.
00:33:42And when I was back this time as well, I was having that realization that the number one
00:33:46thing I do in the morning when I wake up back at my home is I look in the mirror.
00:33:51And so I'm already from the moment I wake up living in my physical self, I'm now living,
00:33:56believing that I am this body and this is all there is.
00:33:59And so that automatically sets me up on the opposite end of what I'm trying to practice
00:34:04spiritually.
00:34:04And so I found that the balance is kept by making that reminder, that first thought of
00:34:09the day of recognizing whether it's in your language, the, you know, that which is not
00:34:15or that which is unseen.
00:34:16And in the Hindu tradition, the accepting of us being pure, eternal, full of knowledge and
00:34:24full of bliss as consciousness, identifying with that before I identify with anything
00:34:29else.
00:34:29And that to me is what helps the balance is not falling into the easy identification.
00:34:34I don't know if any of that made any sense, but.
00:34:36Well, it does.
00:34:37I think you're aware through your own practice that there's more than just the J you see in
00:34:43the mirror and yet you live in a busy world and you're actually like me, you're, you're
00:34:50kind of building a business around the small version of yourself, like the physical corporeal
00:34:56version of yourself that presents here and now smaller than the sort of vast, infinite,
00:35:01mysterious, we don't know what that is somehow it lives in your mind.
00:35:06And the way that you balance it, I heard, is just engage in the messy business of trying
00:35:13to remember to the best of your ability.
00:35:14Yeah.
00:35:15I can't, I can't, I don't need to remind myself that I'm J this physical version because
00:35:20I'm reminded of that every day, but I have to remind myself of that, which is beyond this
00:35:25because otherwise it's so easy to lose touch with it because we are living with the bodily
00:35:30needs as the prime focus.
00:35:31And I think that's why retreats and experiences are so supportive where the bodily needs somewhat
00:35:38become a background priority and the needs of the deeper self rise and the connection
00:35:44with that self is more prominent.
00:35:46And I find that starting my year off that way helps.
00:35:49I was actually just, I was talking to someone who was mentioning, they came to one of your
00:35:53retreats at Omega and they were saying, what a beautiful experience that was.
00:35:57They said it was the only retreat they've ever been on, but they plan on coming on more.
00:36:00And it was for that same reason of to be reminded.
00:36:03And I think that's why we do anything, right?
00:36:05I think we, most of what we do is to remind ourself of something that we care about and
00:36:10something that's meaningful to us.
00:36:11Like whether it's spending time with our family or why we celebrate the holidays, like so much
00:36:16of, I think the most beautiful things in our world are reminding us of what truly matters.
00:36:21And I think spirituality and meditation, to me, meditation is my daily practice of remind
00:36:26myself of what truly matters.
00:36:27Exactly.
00:36:27I mean, I think the biggest problem in my experience, the biggest problem in whatever, again, like
00:36:33I don't know what to call this personal growth, spiritual development, whatever it is, the
00:36:36biggest challenge is forgetting because you hear a great podcast, you see a great Instagram
00:36:43post, you read a great book, you go to a great retreat, but then everything about modern
00:36:47life pulls you back into the, I'm going to get satisfaction from the next thing.
00:36:52Oh no, no.
00:36:52The next thing I'm going to keep scrolling.
00:36:54I'm going to get that next sip of a latte.
00:36:57I'm going to get the next promotion.
00:36:58And again, I'm not saying these are bad things, but they won't do it for you, right?
00:37:02There's a reason why you keep wanting more because the way the human animal is designed
00:37:08is that natural selection didn't want us to be satisfied because then we'd stop, you know,
00:37:13having babies.
00:37:14And that wouldn't be good for the species.
00:37:17So you need to wake, you need, this is a urgent mission.
00:37:22You need to find as many ways as possible to wake back up.
00:37:26And you just described, you know, meditation is a great way to like pound this stuff into
00:37:30your neurons.
00:37:31It's probably too aggressive of an analogy, but it gets it into your molecules in a way.
00:37:36And another thing you also described earlier is having good friends.
00:37:41You know, if you can surround yourself with people who are also taking this thing seriously,
00:37:46that is a great way to wake yourself back up.
00:37:49And it also, by the way, is a great way to get you out of your attachment to the sort of,
00:37:55I don't know if this is the appropriate term to use, but the sort of smallest, most superficial
00:37:59version of yourself, the brand of Dan, the brand of Jay.
00:38:03Well, if you're talking to your best friend and he's got a problem and you're helping
00:38:06him with it, another word for that would be generosity, right?
00:38:09If you're being generous in some way, that's going to get you out of your head.
00:38:13That is a form of letting go.
00:38:15Mm-hmm.
00:38:15I like that.
00:38:16Yeah.
00:38:17That, that, that really, that, that struck a chord there of like how, again, going back
00:38:23to that being, when, when we're being a, I guess in that case you said generous, there's
00:38:30an element of us not living in the system is, is, would you say that that feels right?
00:38:37Why, why is that?
00:38:38Why, why do you think that breaks the system?
00:38:41There's a little line that I have, which is impolite, but, um, the view is so much better
00:38:47when you pull your head out of your ass.
00:38:49And, you know, if you're being generous, your head's out of your ass.
00:38:52Even if you have ulterior motives, which I think we unfairly demonize, like it's okay
00:38:58to give because, you know, you have some, there's something in it for you.
00:39:02By the way, there is something in it for you.
00:39:04The brain is wired to, to experience intense reward, uh, in the act of generosity.
00:39:10That's cool.
00:39:11But you're still more of your bandwidth focused on the benefit to somebody else than there
00:39:16would be if you were like mindlessly scrolling or binging or eating or whatever it is.
00:39:21And it is just fundamentally getting your head out of your ass in whatever form you choose.
00:39:26And it doesn't have to be giving money.
00:39:27It can be holding the door open for somebody.
00:39:30Like, I, I sometimes ask people to do this little mental, very easy mental game of like,
00:39:36pay attention the next time you hold the door open for somebody.
00:39:39What does that feel like?
00:39:41Feels good if you're paying attention.
00:39:42That feeling is infinitely scalable in a way that the pleasure of Instagram or ice cream is not.
00:39:47And, uh, I just, you can ride that insight.
00:39:52Not that I do it perfectly, uh, if at all, but you can, if you're so inclined, ride that insight
00:39:58all the way to a significantly greater levels of happiness.
00:40:02Yeah.
00:40:02Wow.
00:40:02I love that.
00:40:03I love that.
00:40:04That's so interesting that after all these years, you can still open the door for someone
00:40:08and, and, and it still feels great.
00:40:11And it, and you know, whether, whether the other person responds or not, but the endless
00:40:15scrolling on social media is kind of, yeah, loses its taste very, very quickly.
00:40:22Yeah.
00:40:22It doesn't mean you should never do it.
00:40:23I just, it's just the endless part that you should lose.
00:40:25Yeah.
00:40:26Yeah, absolutely.
00:40:26I mean, I guess that's one of the things I loved about in this book when I first came
00:40:30across it, your book, 10% Happier, uh, which is, you know, a huge bestseller, huge success
00:40:36led to the podcast.
00:40:38Also, one of the things I loved was this whole idea about without losing your edge.
00:40:44And I really appreciated that because I think it's what we've both been talking about here.
00:40:49Like I enjoy operating and building and creating like I do.
00:40:54And I've always been, I feel like I'm at a point in my life where I've given myself permission
00:40:58to be all aspects of myself.
00:41:01And up until this stage in my life, I was just collecting different parts of myself.
00:41:06And so I felt like I collected, I mean, zero to 10 probably didn't do anything, but 10 to
00:41:1120, I collected things, 20 to 30, I collected things.
00:41:14And now I'm in my thirties.
00:41:15I feel like I'm connecting things.
00:41:17And that collection to connection has been primarily through the uncomfortable process
00:41:24of accepting and giving myself permission for the paradoxical and contradictory things
00:41:30that live in within me.
00:41:31So as much as I love being fully present and mindful and deeply purifying myself, I also
00:41:39really enjoy building and creating and learning and being curious and outward.
00:41:44And those two things coexist.
00:41:46And I actually find that one feeds the other.
00:41:49So I find that the further I go outwards, the more I want to go inwards, the more I go
00:41:53inwards, the more I want to go outwards in a positive sense.
00:41:56And that cycle continues.
00:41:58And it's a cycle.
00:41:59It's not a, and I think both of us having studied Eastern traditions, the East is fully
00:42:04cyclical and not linear in all of its practices.
00:42:08So the growth journey looks like this.
00:42:09And the Western growth journey generally is portrayed as that, even though it may not
00:42:14be.
00:42:15There's a way in which you can assume that sitting and meditating or even going to a, can
00:42:20you believe this dude went to a monastery for 10 days, a couple of days ago?
00:42:23Like that's not going to help him with his edge, but actually it does help you.
00:42:26It does help you.
00:42:28Do you want to be less emotionally reactive?
00:42:30Do you want to be more focused?
00:42:31Do you want to have better relationships with your collaborators?
00:42:34Okay.
00:42:34Do you think going to a monastery is going to help or hurt with those things?
00:42:37It's going to help with all of those things.
00:42:39And those are the things we need to be successful.
00:42:42We've been sold through hustle culture, this idea that, you know, thank God it's Monday.
00:42:48I've got to rise and grind and all of that stuff.
00:42:50But that, that is, in my experience, a great way to burn out.
00:42:55When in fact that the cycle that you just talked about of, uh, retreat to advance kind
00:43:00of, you know, you, you take some, you don't have to do it.
00:43:02It doesn't even have to be a retreat.
00:43:03It can be just five minutes of meditation every day.
00:43:06That that is filling your tank in a way that allows you to engage in the world more effectively.
00:43:11And so these, these two things are not in opposition in my experience.
00:43:15And you're a walking example of that.
00:43:17Like you spent time being a monk and that has helped you build a business that helps other
00:43:23people that helps you do more inner work.
00:43:26Boom.
00:43:26Yeah, no, and, and of course, and, and I love what you said there because yeah, we've
00:43:30talked a bit about retreats and I don't want everyone to think they need to disappear for
00:43:34a week or a year or whatever it may be.
00:43:36All of this can be done in the microcosm of five minutes.
00:43:38I want to, Dan, walk us through your daily meditation practice.
00:43:41And I'm sure you've done this a million times, but I'd love for people to hear it because
00:43:44I'd love for people to hear how accessible some of these ideas are on a daily basis that
00:43:49we're talking about.
00:43:49And of course, in a way that they can start practicing it as well.
00:43:53So what is your daily practice look like?
00:43:55I'm actually, I'm excited.
00:43:58We're, you're interviewing me right now, but in like two minutes, we're going to turn this
00:44:02around and I'm going to interview you.
00:44:04And I, because we come from different traditions.
00:44:06So I actually come into my discussion with you with a lot of curiosity about what your meditation
00:44:10is like.
00:44:11But so from a Buddhist standpoint, it's for beginners, really not complex.
00:44:17And a lot of people worry that it's going to be, you know, esoteric or impossible, but
00:44:23it really isn't.
00:44:24There's really three steps for beginning mindfulness meditation.
00:44:28And by the way, I do use, I keep talking about Buddhism, but this meditation that I'm talking
00:44:33about now is secular.
00:44:34There's no religious lingo or metaphysical claims.
00:44:37It's just a, it's a very simple secular kind of exercise for the brain.
00:44:41And the first step is just to sit or lie down comfortably, close your eyes.
00:44:46Um, and the second step is to bring your full attention to the feeling of your breath coming
00:44:51in and going out.
00:44:52For some people, um, the breath is, can make you a little anxious if you're focusing on
00:44:57that.
00:44:57And if that's you, then you just pick something else, like the feeling of your body sitting
00:45:01or lying down.
00:45:02So that's step number two.
00:45:04First, get into a comfortable position, sitting or lying down.
00:45:07Second, pick something to focus on, like, um, your breath or the feeling of your body.
00:45:11And then the third step is the most important, because as soon as you try to do this, your
00:45:15mind is likely to go into mutiny mode.
00:45:18You're having an, all these random thoughts and urges and emotions.
00:45:21And at this moment, the voice in people's heads often swoops in and tells them in this
00:45:26whole story about how they're failed meditators.
00:45:28I mean, you were talking about this earlier, but that voice is wrong.
00:45:32The whole goal in meditation is just to notice that you've become distracted and to start
00:45:36again and again and again, and the waking up from distraction is not proof of failure.
00:45:42It's actually proof of success because the whole goal here is to get more familiar with
00:45:47this inner conversation that we're all having, this inner narrator that is chasing us out of
00:45:51bed in the morning and is yammering at us all day long.
00:45:55You just want to get more familiar with this cacophony so that it doesn't own you as much.
00:46:00And so it's really that simple.
00:46:01Pick one thing to focus on, usually the breath.
00:46:04Then in a few seconds in, you'll start having random thoughts about like, what kind of bird
00:46:08was big bird or, you know, where do gerbils run wild, whatever, all these random thoughts.
00:46:13As soon as you wake up from those thoughts, blow them a kiss and go back to the breath,
00:46:17back to the breath over and over and over again.
00:46:19And that's like a bicep curl for your brain.
00:46:22And that's what we see on the brain scans of people who meditate that the area of the brain
00:46:25associated with attention or focus changes in a positive way.
00:46:30Meanwhile, the area of the brain associated with stress shrinks.
00:46:33And this is an exercise that anybody can do.
00:46:38I will say a small asterisk.
00:46:40If you have significant mental health challenges or trauma, it might be good to do it under
00:46:44the supervision of a mental health professional.
00:46:46But other than that, it really is universally accessible.
00:46:50It doesn't matter what your religious beliefs are, or if like me, you're an agnostic.
00:46:53This is simple secular exercise for your brain.
00:46:56And I love what you said there is that we're really just trying to get attuned to that
00:47:00in a voice that is basically telling us what to do all day and pushing around in every direction.
00:47:08I find that that voice has often led us to achieve incredible things.
00:47:16That voice often leads us to achieve things and still feel unfulfilled.
00:47:21That voice has almost become such a friend in so many ways and sometimes a toxic friend.
00:47:27It's almost a toxic relationship we have with the voice inside of our head where we listen
00:47:31to it, but we don't always like it.
00:47:33But sometimes it helps us win and sometimes it, you know, sometimes it helps us get one
00:47:36up on someone and then other times it lets us down and it's, it's doing all of this.
00:47:40It's almost like, I think like a toxic relationship, we're scared of letting go of that voice because
00:47:46it's almost like, what do I replace it with?
00:47:47Yes.
00:47:47I'm just going to be alone.
00:47:49Well, a couple of things to say about that.
00:47:51One is there are many voices.
00:47:53You have, I mean, the, one of the theories of modern psychological series, theories is
00:47:57called the, the modular model of mind.
00:47:59We have these modes.
00:48:00I kind of think about it.
00:48:01Like you remember, um, magic eight balls.
00:48:04Yeah.
00:48:04You shake one up.
00:48:05Yeah, I still love this.
00:48:06And, and, uh, and the tiles compete for the top space that you, that, and then it'll send
00:48:12you a message or whatever.
00:48:13So we have a bunch of tiles in our head and they're all competing for that little, for,
00:48:18for the steering wheel.
00:48:19Right.
00:48:20And so I've got a jealous mode and angry mode, a fearful mode, a self-critical mode.
00:48:25And I think often the self-critical mode is the one with a steering wheel, but you have
00:48:29a wise mode, a generous mode, a compassionate mode, and they're often just not getting, uh,
00:48:36that much airtime.
00:48:37Um, and there are ways through meditation, through therapy, being in nature, uh, exercise
00:48:45that can bring the healthier tiles to the surface.
00:48:49And so that's just one thing to say.
00:48:52Um, and then the other thing to say is that, um, yeah, it's true that the self-criticism,
00:48:58it's, it's, we're, we're scared that if we let it go, that we'll be on the couch eating
00:49:02ice cream until the end of time.
00:49:04And that's just not what's going to happen.
00:49:06Uh, back to Tibetan Buddhism, and I'm not an expert in it, but they have this expression
00:49:12that might, I have a couple of colleagues who are sitting on a couch over here who heard
00:49:16me say this a million times, but I really love this.
00:49:19This, I, there's the, the Tibetan word for enlightenment, as far as I understand it, roughly
00:49:25translates into a clearing away and a bringing forth.
00:49:29You clear away the noise, all of our, all of our demons, our unhelpful demons, what can
00:49:37come out is what is already there in, in all of us, which is the good stuff.
00:49:45You know, I, you might use the word, the loaded word love.
00:49:48And I think of love as like sort of an overarching term that encompasses things like generosity,
00:49:53compassion, kindness, patience, uh, um, ethics.
00:49:57And that is in us.
00:49:59Of course it's in us because back to evolution as a social species, we needed all that stuff
00:50:04in order to cooperate and collaborate and become the apex predator on the planet.
00:50:08And when you turn the volume down on the, you know, shittier aspects of our nature, the
00:50:14good stuff will come out.
00:50:15And it's, it's, it has an edge.
00:50:19It has the edge that you want.
00:50:21It does want to create beautiful and important things in the world.
00:50:24It does want to take care of you too, as well as it wants to take care of everybody.
00:50:29It, it does, um, it does want to stand up to injustice.
00:50:33It does want to be tough, but not motivated by hatred instead by the good stuff, which is
00:50:39like giving a shit, caring.
00:50:41Um, anyway, that's, that's all my experience of how this goes.
00:50:44Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:50:44And, and you're not, I'm not perfect at it by any stretch.
00:50:48Yeah.
00:50:48I mean, I've been, I made a reference to the Liz and Tony who are sitting in the room
00:50:51with us, like give them the mic.
00:50:53They'll tell you, you know, 90% still a moron.
00:50:56Absolutely.
00:50:57No, no, no.
00:50:57But I, but I love the idea of how we're simply reconnecting with and reawakening something
00:51:02we've forgotten.
00:51:03So it's almost like we're associating with that angry mode, that envy mode, that jealousy
00:51:09mode, that ego mode every day.
00:51:11And so we've started to accept that it's our reality and normality.
00:51:16Whereas you said, we do also have a wise mode.
00:51:18It's just that we haven't experienced it either outside of us or inside of us for so
00:51:23long that we've forgotten it's there, but it is there.
00:51:25It is accessible.
00:51:27And I think that is not only true based on the wisdom traditions we've studied, but it's
00:51:32also empowering to recognize that this isn't something new you're having to figure out or
00:51:37develop.
00:51:38It's an ability that almost exists within you already that has just been buried and
00:51:43covered over by all these other layers of identification and impurities.
00:51:48You've been so vulnerable a couple of times to mention this thing inside of you as an anger
00:51:53mode.
00:51:53You were saying earlier, you have two modes and one of them was anger.
00:51:56And I wanted, if it's okay to kind of like kind of hone in on that, because I think that's
00:52:02something we've actually never really discussed on the podcast in all the guests we've had.
00:52:07And I think it's something that often is something people are scared of talking about.
00:52:13It's a taboo topic because of the connotations that anger is associated with.
00:52:19And I was wondering how as meditation and mindfulness, what have they shown you or helped you understand
00:52:27about anger?
00:52:28Because I think, I think our mind often goes to, well, I want to stop being angry rather
00:52:32than I want to understand anger.
00:52:34And I think this is so true for so many things in society.
00:52:37We're like, I wish that would just stop.
00:52:40And it's almost like, well, before it stops, we may need to get to know it a bit better and
00:52:44understand it and befriend it, going back to the high five point you made earlier.
00:52:48And so I thought, let's start with anger for that.
00:52:51Sure.
00:52:51I mean, there's this great, I know you know who he is, but there's this great Vietnamese
00:52:56Zen master, Thich Nhat Hanh.
00:52:57And he has this, this expression about like holding your anger like a, like a baby.
00:53:05I don't love that because I'm such an anti-sentimentalist and I, you know, I find it like somewhat annoying,
00:53:12even though I, he's completely right.
00:53:16He's a genius or was a genius.
00:53:17He passed recently.
00:53:19There's something to that.
00:53:20First of all, the anger is trying to tell you something.
00:53:23In my case, it's like some infantile usually desire to protect myself.
00:53:34And often it's sometimes anger has been described as a secondary emotion.
00:53:40So it's an emotion that's covering up for another emotion.
00:53:44And in my case, it's usually fear.
00:53:46So I'm a guy and we don't like to admit fear.
00:53:51And often if I look closely, if I hold the anger like a, like a crying child, if I get over
00:53:59myself and do the thing that the wise person has mentioned that we should probably do, I
00:54:04actually see, oh yeah, I'm scared of something here.
00:54:07And that's really helpful because then I can, I can respond wisely to the thing that's making
00:54:14me angry slash scared rather than reacting blindly.
00:54:18There's a difference between healthy anger and destructive anger.
00:54:22Again, this is not my insight.
00:54:24This is the way in psychological circles, they talk about a healthy anger is that can get
00:54:28you off the couch to do something about a problem.
00:54:30And I, and it's, it's clarifying it.
00:54:33It can help, healthy anger can help us see clearly where somebody is full of shit.
00:54:39Although there's a reason why we talk about anger as seeing red because it can also be,
00:54:43you know, blind with blind rage.
00:54:46And so that's the destructive anger, which we're, that's an anger fueled by hatred, fueled
00:54:52by bias, bigotry, um, and it can get us into endless conflict.
00:55:00And that's what you want to avoid.
00:55:02That's what I've failed to avoid for too many times in my own life.
00:55:07And that's still screw that up, you know, regularly.
00:55:11Um, but it's nothing can happen until you identify the problem.
00:55:16Um, you talked about this earlier, you know, like one of the things that meditation does
00:55:20for you is it helps you be aware of stuff so that you can work with it.
00:55:24And so, yeah, this is one of my big things that I have to work with.
00:55:28Yeah.
00:55:28Thank you for sharing that.
00:55:29No, I, I, I really value that understanding of a, the difference in the two angers that
00:55:36you just mentioned there, but also, yeah, just, just being able to recognize the fear
00:55:43that sits beneath it.
00:55:44And I, I can, when I get agitated or irritated, it's always because there's something I'm
00:55:51fearful of.
00:55:51And it's often, it's even the fear, fear of messing up.
00:55:55You know, it's, uh, for me, I'm, I'm thinking of when I'm asked a question and I feel like
00:56:00I don't have any enough time to solve it.
00:56:02And then I'm like, oh, no, just, you know, whatever, like that kind of agitation, that
00:56:05irritation comes out.
00:56:07And really it's a fear of, I'm like, I wish we had more time.
00:56:09I would be able to solve this.
00:56:11Like, I don't want to mess up.
00:56:12I don't want to give it.
00:56:12And, and so, and it's so interesting that what is actually well-intentioned of a desire
00:56:18to want to get things right, turns out to be experienced as that.
00:56:22And like you said, and like you mentioned, Thich Nhat Hanh said, of being able to hold
00:56:27it as a baby or being able to, yeah, it's almost like, it's so interesting though, what
00:56:34you said about the skept, not the skepticism that you have, but the, you know, you were
00:56:38saying the overly sentimental version of holding a baby.
00:56:41And I think often that is the perspective people have of these ideas, right?
00:56:45With mindfulness, with meditation that, oh, it's sentimental.
00:56:47It's a bit fluffy.
00:56:48It's a bit woo woo.
00:56:49And we know there's science behind it now.
00:56:51And those, those days should be gone, but they're not because there's still a skepticism
00:56:56and cynicism around the idea of like, oh yeah, my fear is like, whatever.
00:56:59There's no fear, right?
00:57:00Because that in and of itself is trying to protect us from, or trying to protect us from
00:57:06our fear.
00:57:06And so how have you seen in others and how have you and yourself been able to catch yourself
00:57:13double bluffing yourself or when you're almost, you know, you're, you're finding that way around
00:57:18doing the actual work.
00:57:20One of the biggest and most reliable sources of feedback for me is, um, defensiveness or
00:57:28dismissiveness.
00:57:29If I am dismissing something out of hand, it's usually something I should listen to.
00:57:36And if I'm getting defensive, it's because there's something I know I should hear that
00:57:40I'm unwilling to hear at that moment.
00:57:41And, uh, I almost never catch it.
00:57:44It's a great answer.
00:57:45I almost never catch it in the moment.
00:57:47I almost never catch it in the moment, but it's usually when I feel embarrassed the next
00:57:52day.
00:57:52Yeah.
00:57:53You know, it's like, it, it's just, I keep coming back to this, you know, I'm so pissed
00:57:57that this person said this thing is like, ah, shit, they're probably right.
00:58:00Um, and so I actually got an email the other day from, I won't say her name because she
00:58:05didn't give me permission, but from a great meditation teacher who was talking to me about
00:58:09something and she, I didn't recall her getting defensive, but she recalled herself getting
00:58:13defensive about something because I was pushing her on something.
00:58:15And then she wrote me an email the next day.
00:58:17She was like, I woke up thinking about how I was defensive.
00:58:20And that means that there's something I really need to listen to there.
00:58:23So I'm going to go in that direction.
00:58:25You push me.
00:58:25And that's, that's usually how I get past the double bluff.
00:58:30Yeah.
00:58:30I think for me, it comes out in, if I'm judging someone.
00:58:35So I find that if I'm judging someone that there's a sense of truth that, that exists
00:58:40within me somewhere.
00:58:41And so I need to explore that, that which I'm judging in someone else.
00:58:45And I've been working on that one.
00:58:48And that's the hardest one.
00:58:49And it's the most embarrassing too, because it's like you, it feels good to point at the
00:58:56other person.
00:58:57They're such a schmuck or whatever, but like, of course you're seeing it so clearly and you're,
00:59:02you hate it so much because it's, it's in you.
00:59:05Yeah.
00:59:06And it's so funny because when you see it in them, you're like, how can they not be aware
00:59:10that they're like that?
00:59:11And at the same time, you're talking about yourself and you know, you recognize you're
00:59:15not, you're not even aware when you're like that.
00:59:17And I think that's where I noticed where I'm, where it's easy to double bluff myself.
00:59:22And I have to be conscious of that.
00:59:24It goes along your lines too.
00:59:26It's like you're building a story to support your view without evidence and without research
00:59:31and without looking at all of the facts and, you know, you've, you've created a story that
00:59:38makes sense to you in order to fulfill your, your desire, whatever that may be.
00:59:45And then you're not forced to actually look at yourself.
00:59:47There's a great expression.
00:59:48Uh, if it's hysterical, it's historical.
00:59:53You know, if like you're getting hysterical about something, there's some, it's some deep
00:59:59programming and yeah, I hate admitting that.
01:00:04Yeah.
01:00:04I think we're both, we're both going back and forth, admitting all of our, admitting all
01:00:08of our flaws and challenges and issues, but, but that's what meditation does, right?
01:00:13It's just that this is actually what, what's transpired without, without intention or maybe
01:00:20with intention, but actually this is the benefit of practicing mindfulness and meditation is a
01:00:27really healthy relationship with all of your imperfections.
01:00:32I mean, you interview all sorts of people, but you interview a lot of like great folks
01:00:37from the meditation world and so do I.
01:00:40And so in my experience, the common denominator among all of the great like spiritual masters,
01:00:46right?
01:00:46If that's a term that you're okay with, the common denominator is they all have a sense
01:00:51of humor.
01:00:51Because how can you look at this mind without laughing after a while?
01:00:57The word that my meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein uses most frequently is ridiculous.
01:01:03Yes.
01:01:04Yes.
01:01:04Because we're ridiculous.
01:01:05Yeah.
01:01:05We're ridiculous.
01:01:06And it's just, it's so healthy to see that and laugh at it.
01:01:10Yeah, definitely.
01:01:11Yeah.
01:01:11Our teachers would obviously always talk about the monkey mind.
01:01:14Yes.
01:01:14And although that's somewhat of a alien analogy to some degree, at least when you've grown
01:01:21up in England or in the US, because you're not seeing monkeys all the time.
01:01:25But when I have gone to certain spiritual sites in India that are, you know, infiltrated
01:01:30with monkeys, it will only make you laugh.
01:01:33Like I've seen monkeys, you know, rip bags to steal fruit.
01:01:38I've seen monkeys steal people's sunglasses and then trade it back for food.
01:01:43I've seen monkeys steal credit cards, like, and know how to barter for what they want.
01:01:50Like I've seen monkeys put on sunglasses.
01:01:53Like all you need to do, I mean, me and my wife went to Bali this year and we went to
01:01:57the monkey forest there and the monkeys are just hilarious and ridiculous is the word.
01:02:02And it's almost like when you start seeing the habits of the mind as a monkey, it's so
01:02:08easy to laugh at it because you just realize how ridiculous it is and how, how hilarious
01:02:13they are and how uncontrollable they are, as opposed to looking at it as this thing, like
01:02:18almost like a Rubik's cube, which we sometimes see it as, and you get frustrated trying to
01:02:23figure it out.
01:02:24As opposed to when you look at a monkey, you go, well, a monkey is going to be a monkey.
01:02:26So I'm not surprised when my mind is ridiculous.
01:02:29I'm not expecting my mind to be this, you know, you're never looking at a monkey expecting
01:02:35it to be sitting there meditating on top of a rock.
01:02:37You're expecting to see a monkey jump from branch to branch and swing and, you know,
01:02:42whatever else it may be.
01:02:43And all of a sudden when you can, and you have to have had the real experience of that
01:02:47in order to even have that really sit.
01:02:50I'm like, if I hadn't seen, and then a couple of years ago, I went to Rwanda and we trekked
01:02:54with gorillas and we saw the little baby gorillas who were just playful and silly and the sound
01:02:58of their laugh and just what they were like.
01:03:01And you just start to recognize you need to, this is why what you just said earlier, you
01:03:05mentioned it passively, but observing nature is such a beautiful way of understanding ourselves.
01:03:11And again, going back to your earliest point, our disconnection from each other and nature
01:03:17means we're only seeing systems and machines and the way systems and machines work and
01:03:24now our expectation of our mind to work the same way.
01:03:26I want to turn my mind off and I want to turn my mind on because we've seen the system of
01:03:31on and off on a light switch to a phone, to a tablet for so many years now that we've lost
01:03:36the idea of, wait a minute, the sun sets and the sun rises, but it doesn't sun off and
01:03:42sun on and we've lost that concept of there is no instant on and off and there is no instant
01:03:49switch.
01:03:51There is only nature doing its cycle and its phases and its rituals almost.
01:03:57To pick up on the instant part of it, you know, it kind of takes me back to the first
01:04:01question you asked around stress.
01:04:03And we talked about some of the contributors.
01:04:04I think one of the contributors is that we live in a world that doesn't have enough friction,
01:04:10that we've created a world for young people.
01:04:13And to me, you're a young person, but because I'm in my 50s and you're in your 30s, but I
01:04:18have a nine-year-old who's a much younger person and we, you know, there's a way that older people
01:04:23can blame younger people for their, oh, this generation or kids today or whatever.
01:04:29But we, this is a world we've created for them where there isn't a lot of friction.
01:04:32You can get everything you want on demand.
01:04:34Um, and as a consequence, people are intolerant of discomfort and that is creating a lot of
01:04:41anxiety because life is uncomfortable and there are going to be stressful and, uh, scary
01:04:48situations and your ability to thrive is going to be directly correlated to your ability to
01:04:53handle this.
01:04:54And if we don't get comfortable with discomfort, we're going to suffer.
01:04:58And there are ways to work with this.
01:05:00One of them is, um, this thing that it's a psychological term, opposite action.
01:05:05You know, when you, oh, I'll give you an example.
01:05:08Um, I have intense claustrophobia.
01:05:11Uh, and when your, uh, colleague Jordan came to pick me up, uh, in the lobby of the hotel
01:05:16in which we're doing this interview and, uh, take me up the elevator, I said, I have to
01:05:22ride alone because I didn't want to have a panic attack in front of her.
01:05:25Wow.
01:05:25Um, but I got on the elevator.
01:05:28Yeah.
01:05:28I didn't want to, I thought about walking 30 flights and I've done that before.
01:05:32Wow.
01:05:32Sorry.
01:05:33I feel terrible now.
01:05:34I wish we'd have known that.
01:05:35How'd you set this up, dude?
01:05:37What are you doing to me?
01:05:37I feel terrible.
01:05:38Uh, no, I, I, I, but the, the, the lesson here is that I need to get on elevators regularly.
01:05:43Yeah.
01:05:44That's the way out of this.
01:05:46It's opposite action.
01:05:47I need to do the thing I'm scared of carefully.
01:05:50I don't want to give myself a panic attack, although there are some people who argue that
01:05:54that is a way through this, but for me, I just kind of gently expose myself to the stuff
01:05:58I'm afraid of.
01:05:59And so I actually look, I relish the opportunity to get on an elevator or to take a subway ride.
01:06:04I just have to do it in the right circumstances.
01:06:06So I didn't inflict it upon Jordan.
01:06:09I just took a different elevator.
01:06:10And I actually think this is one of the, this is one of the ways out, one of the ways out
01:06:15of the epidemic of stress and anxiety that we began this conversation with, which is to
01:06:20in whatever way in your own life, to just dose yourself carefully and gently with some
01:06:27discomfort to take the opposite action, do the opposite of what you want to do, which
01:06:33may be to, you know, hide from the discomfort, go to that party, accept the invitation, ask
01:06:39that person out for a cup of coffee, press like on that Instagram post, you know, little
01:06:45steps like that will, will equip you and arm you to move through a world that is largely
01:06:50out of your control.
01:06:52Dan, thank you so much.
01:06:53It's been such a joy talking to you today.
01:06:55And I've really, I've really enjoyed how, you know, this conversation turned into the
01:07:02benefits of meditation without listing the benefits of meditation, but the, but the acceptance
01:07:08of the benefits being a deeper awareness of who we are, what we need to improve and doing
01:07:13that with love, with kindness, with gentleness, as opposed to hate, pressure and stress that
01:07:21we often place on ourselves, but we end every episode with a final five and these final five
01:07:27have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum each.
01:07:31And so Dan, these are your final five.
01:07:33The first question is, what is the best advice about mindfulness that you've ever heard or
01:07:38received?
01:07:39Just start again.
01:07:40I like that.
01:07:41Yeah.
01:07:41Beautiful.
01:07:42What is the, second question is, what is the worst advice about mindfulness or meditation
01:07:47that you've ever heard or received?
01:07:48Clear your mind.
01:07:49It's so bad.
01:07:51It's so bad.
01:07:53It's so bad.
01:07:56And it was almost marketed like that for a long time.
01:07:59Yes.
01:07:59For a long, long time.
01:08:00Yeah.
01:08:01Question number three, how would you define your current purpose?
01:08:05Make awesome shit that helps people do their lives better.
01:08:09I love that.
01:08:11Question number four, a thought that you'd like to repeat more often.
01:08:16Well, I got a tattoo recently.
01:08:19Oh, nice.
01:08:20It's an acronym, F-T-B-O-A-B.
01:08:23It's way off brand for me in terms of like, it's cheesier than I like to be, but it stands,
01:08:29it's a Buddhist phrase for the benefit of all beings.
01:08:32And we talked about my anger habit, but one of my other habits that I also mentioned that
01:08:37I don't like is a kind of selfishness or greed.
01:08:39And so I really try to remind myself as much as possible, like, no, I'm answering this
01:08:45in more than a word.
01:08:46Sorry.
01:08:46No, it's brilliant.
01:08:47It's a great answer.
01:08:47It's a great answer.
01:08:48Please continue.
01:08:49But I try to remind myself, yeah, this is for the benefit of all beings.
01:08:53And the A, the all, I'm included in that.
01:08:56So it's not like I can't make a living or whatever.
01:08:58But having it right here next to my watch, I'm trying to put that thought in my head more
01:09:04frequently.
01:09:05I love that.
01:09:06That's a beautiful answer.
01:09:07Fifth and final question, which we asked every guest who's ever been on the show.
01:09:11If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
01:09:20How long do most people pause?
01:09:21Because I'm thinking.
01:09:22People take forever.
01:09:24Okay.
01:09:24And that's why you picked up the book.
01:09:25You're like, I'm going to read a chapter.
01:09:27No, no.
01:09:29We either, we either allow, we either allow people to edit it out or they can have their
01:09:33thinking time in the edit, whatever they prefer.
01:09:35Okay.
01:09:37What law?
01:09:38Take your time.
01:09:39It's a fun question.
01:09:40So I prefer it when people think about it.
01:09:42And I don't think this is something that you can legislate.
01:09:48So I wouldn't want to force it, but it would be like a strong suggestion, which is around
01:09:55kindness, which is that maybe I'll use this phrase from the Dalai Lama that I like better
01:10:02than kindness because kindness can sound very bland, wise selfishness that if you want to
01:10:11do selfishness correctly, you will be thinking about the benefit of all beings to the best
01:10:17of your ability, because that is how you will get happier.
01:10:21Yeah.
01:10:21Um, and if we lived our lives, all of us with that as a North star, which again, I don't know if I could
01:10:27make it a law, but I could make it a strongly held policy.
01:10:32I think that would change a lot.
01:10:35I think that would change.
01:10:35I'm not a utopian.
01:10:36I don't believe that we can create a perfect world, but I think that we can create a much
01:10:41better world.
01:10:42If, if we play to people's self-interest in a way that really is in their self-interest
01:10:48instead of the fleeting dopamine hits that we're selling people on now, that actually
01:10:52your abiding happiness is going to be found in, um, in kindness.
01:10:56And I, I wish there was a less cheesy way to say that.
01:10:59That's a great answer.
01:11:00I love it.
01:11:00More than a, more than a sentence.
01:11:02It's perfect.
01:11:03It was perfect.
01:11:04Uh, the 10th anniversary edition of Dan's book, 10% Happier, How I Tamed the Voice in
01:11:10My Head, Reduced Stressed Without Losing My Edge and Found Self-Help That Actually Works,
01:11:14A True Story is available right now, of course, with the 10th anniversary edition.
01:11:18That's amazing.
01:11:19Congratulations.
01:11:19That's really beautiful.
01:11:20I'm so much grayer now than when the book came out.
01:11:22So, and, and of course, subscribe to Dan's podcast, 10% Happier as well.
01:11:27Uh, Dan, thank you so much for coming onto On Purpose.
01:11:29Uh, this was such a refreshing and really, really beautiful organic conversation.
01:11:34And I appreciate you going there with me because that's kind of the space I've been in on the
01:11:38show recently of wanting to get lost with someone.
01:11:41Right.
01:11:41Just to go into a flow.
01:11:42Yeah.
01:11:42It's so interesting to meet you because, I mean, uh, this is a long way of saying thank
01:11:46you.
01:11:46Um, it's just so interesting to meet you because I've seen you from afar for a million years.
01:11:50And then just to like walk into this hotel room, you're like this dude who just shows
01:11:55up there.
01:11:55Hey, how you doing?
01:11:56Like you're way more casual and down to earth than I might've expected.
01:12:01And so it's really fun to like put an actual person to the name.
01:12:05That's very sweet.
01:12:06I really appreciate that.
01:12:06Thank you so much.
01:12:07And, uh, maybe we're doing a terrible job, terrible job at the brand name.
01:12:10That's not how I come across.
01:12:12No, it's my own paranoia.
01:12:14It's my own paranoia.
01:12:15It's so funny.
01:12:16It's so funny.
01:12:16I'm like, I'm like, oh, the guys, we're going to get it together.
01:12:18Uh, no, I really appreciate that.
01:12:21Thank you so much.
01:12:21That's usually when you, when I, I, you, I meet a, I've met a lot of well-known people
01:12:26in my job, um, as a journalist, cause I lived my job to interview them.
01:12:30And, uh, it's rare that I like people more after meeting them based on their public persona.
01:12:37And so that's what I was trying to say.
01:12:39That's very kind.
01:12:40That's very kind.
01:12:40It's, uh, that's, I really appreciate that.
01:12:42So I, I, I received that deeply and I think it's really hard.
01:12:47I've, I've definitely struggled with this.
01:12:48Like we're just, I can only be fully myself with someone I'm in person with.
01:12:54It's, it's impossible to, I find it impossible to be your whole self on a 30 second video or,
01:13:02uh, you know, if someone listens to the podcast, I feel they know me because they're hearing,
01:13:06you know, full conversations of an hour each week.
01:13:09So, or every day, some people listen to it.
01:13:11Like I feel like someone listens to the podcast, they have a deep, deep understanding of me
01:13:15or if they've read the books, but if someone's just seeing something on social media, they
01:13:19have such a limited view.
01:13:20And it's so hard, uh, to, to portray yourself in that way or in your, in your true self.
01:13:25So I appreciate that.
01:13:26Thank you so much.
01:13:27Thank you, Dan.
01:13:27Thanks for having me.
01:13:27It's been a real treat.
01:13:28Thank you so much.
01:13:29Thank you so much for listening to this conversation.
01:13:32If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to
01:13:38growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential.
01:13:42If you know, you want to be more and achieve more this year, go check it out right now.
01:13:48You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months.
01:13:51And then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief.
01:13:54There's no sense of meaning and purpose.
01:13:56You sort of expected it and you would have been disappointed if it didn't happen.

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