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Tomasz Margulies Pietrzykowski (Tomek) 's testimony filmed in June 2023 .
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00:00So, it was changed because my father decided that after the war, Margulius would be clearly
00:12Jewish name, and even it was after the war, he preferred cut Jewishness completely, forget
00:22about it, because, you know, Poland was dangerous, there were still pogroms in Kielce, etc.
00:34So he decided to finish with Jewishness.
00:41I didn't even know he changed in the Etat Civil, Margulius is completely erased.
00:52I was officially now written, I was born as Tomasz Piotrzykowski, I was shocked, because
01:00I was a child, a little boy, he didn't tell me.
01:05And so, can you tell me, how was the life, if you remember something before the war, from
01:1134 to 40, do you have some memories?
01:15Oh yes.
01:16What kind of family, what kind of life you had?
01:19Let's say, a kind of bourgeoisie, but not the grand bourgeoisie, not the small, not like
01:31shopkeeper.
01:32My father was co-owner and director of wool, making wool, I don't know how to say it in
01:47English, wool, wool, what you make material from.
01:53There was this factory, it was family business, there were all sorts of co-owners, but he was
02:02a director and they didn't have anything to do with this factory, and he was director and
02:12loved by even workers, he was very, very dutiful and decent man.
02:21And it was a Jewish factory?
02:23No.
02:24No.
02:25No, no, no, no.
02:26Jews were not workers.
02:27Oh.
02:28No.
02:29No, no.
02:30It was factory of my grandfather, and then he didn't manage, he was an expert in, and my
02:42father was extremely, was very, very thing, educated in Belgium, in, in Polytechnique, which
02:51was specialized in fabrics.
02:55And your mother, she, how many children were you?
02:59Your mother was taking care of the family.
03:02Well, no, not much of a family.
03:05I had only one sister.
03:07And older sister or younger sister?
03:11Younger.
03:12After the war.
03:13Ah yes, you were alone, so all that time you were the only child.
03:18Only child.
03:19They did not want any children?
03:21Well, I don't know, you know, before they probably, maybe they wanted, but the war started
03:28and that was the last thing people wanted to have, the children.
03:33And so you had a happy life before the war?
03:38Very.
03:39Happy.
03:40You know, happy is a relative thing.
03:43I have, it was, my parents were doing very well.
03:50And do you have a Jewish, Jewish religion?
03:57Do you have...
03:58No, they were atheists.
03:59Ah, yes.
04:00They were...
04:01Gnostics or atheists.
04:02They didn't have any religion.
04:04And you were, you did not do your bar mitzvah, you were not...
04:09I knew that.
04:10I am theoretically something called Jew, but I wasn't clear.
04:15I was up to five years, what it is.
04:20I only, the only, I never was in synagogue.
04:24I never knew really what it is.
04:33It is only after German entered and I had to have the...
04:39Because all the Jews had to have a, with David Starr thing.
04:44Where was it?
04:45It was...
04:46In woods still.
04:47It was on the, on the arm you had to wear?
04:50Oh, everybody Jew had, on the arm, when it was on the street, where this...
04:56And did...
04:57So did you get a...
04:58Then they said, told me, that's because we are Jewish.
05:02So you had a great Milan when you were a baby?
05:05For me?
05:06I was circumcised.
05:08Yes.
05:09So they were doing the minimum?
05:11The minimum, absolutely, probably for my grandparents.
05:17They were both religious from both sides?
05:20No, my grandfather was probably also atheist.
05:24But grandmother was quite religious.
05:27On which side?
05:28Your mother or your father?
05:30My mother.
05:31I know very little about my father's family.
05:35They all perished.
05:37All.
05:38No trace.
05:39No.
05:40I was no Polish, very important sociologist in one of the department of Academy of Science.
05:53And she specialized in the Jews.
05:58So she found me and interviewed me for a long time to get...
06:04And I was talking with her and asked to find any documents.
06:10Because she had access to all the documents about my father's family.
06:17No trace.
06:18And they had the same family name.
06:20This family name was...
06:21Margulies.
06:22Yeah, Margulies.
06:23And that has disappeared totally.
06:25Totally.
06:26Yeah.
06:27And my father didn't want to talk about it.
06:30And he had brothers and sisters?
06:33My father, oh yeah, he had two sisters.
06:37And they...
06:38Everybody disappeared.
06:39And they...
06:40Not disappeared.
06:41Everybody would go to Auschwitz or Auschwitz.
06:45And...
06:46They stayed in Łódź in ghetto.
06:51And all Łódź ghetto was...
06:54Nobody would survive.
06:56No, not nobody, but very few.
06:58Very few.
06:59Very few.
07:00And so probably your parents got married at the synagogue, because that also was the minimum.
07:09Probably.
07:10Probably.
07:11Their wedding.
07:12I have no idea.
07:13No.
07:14They didn't.
07:15It was not talked.
07:19Not that it was anything.
07:22But the religion was, my mother considered it, zabobon, zabobon.
07:29I use the Polish word, prayer, some storytelling.
07:35And so, when did you see the changes?
07:40When the German arrived?
07:42You were six years old, something like that?
07:44Five.
07:45Five years old.
07:46Exactly.
07:47When is your birthday?
07:48They arrived day after, day after, before my birthday.
07:54When was it?
07:56It was 39.
07:59Yes, but which date?
08:01Which date?
08:02When they arrived?
08:03No, you can find little Google in which, but I don't remember.
08:07But your, your birthday, when are you born?
08:09Which date?
08:11In December, September, September 13.
08:19Yeah.
08:20So they arrived at that moment?
08:22More or less?
08:23More or less.
08:24Yeah.
08:25It was the beginning of the war.
08:27Yeah.
08:28Which was taken without any defense.
08:32And what happened to your family and you?
08:36You had to move?
08:37You had to, you were living in a house?
08:39What happened?
08:40No.
08:41No, I didn't have to move my own apartment.
08:43We didn't have to move yet.
08:46But particularly my mother, my mother knew, because she had experienced, with the first
08:54war and Soviets, etc.
08:58So my father was naïve, he couldn't believe that such a cultural nation, he knew Germans and no Germans, he couldn't believe it, that they would do what they did.
09:13So he wanted to be loyal to his worker, to his factory, to this thing.
09:20My mother wanted to get out of Poland, go to Romania and go to Argentina.
09:27Yeah, she was more aware of the danger.
09:32Yeah, because she was in Soviet Union, so you know what means totalitarian regime.
09:41She was Russian? She was born as a Russian?
09:44No, no, no. Also she was born in Łódź. Or near Łódź, where was this factory, my grandfather had his, let's say, maison, big maison.
10:00And when did you have to move? So at the beginning there were no much...
10:04We have to move. We moved to Warsaw because the idea was that Łódź would be part of the Reich. And Warsaw was a general governor.
10:23It was sort of... I was completely occupied, but the theory would be safer for Jews to be there.
10:35So you moved there?
10:37Yeah. Not long time ago, but months or two after.
10:42And how was the life?
10:45You mean before the war?
10:47No, no, in Warsaw when you arrived.
10:50Oh, it was lovely. We lived in Warsaw. We lived with my aunt who was...
10:59She was married to very wealthy industrialists, chemical industrialists, who was taken to Polish armies.
11:10They made this whole intelligence officers, and was in some off-lag. But my aunt was supremely well-known.
11:23She was a theatrical actress. And she knew all sorts of people. And we lived in luxurious apartments.
11:34Much better than in our apartment in Łódź. She was much richer.
11:41What was her name?
11:42Her name?
11:43Her name... Well, who knows what is her name? She died as Isa de Neumann. But her birth name probably was Isa Lusternik.
12:00She was a sister of your mother?
12:02Yeah. Older sister.
12:04So, what was their name? Lusternik?
12:07Lusternik. That was the maiden name of my mother. Oh, and about Lusternik she found a lot. This sociologist.
12:21So, at the beginning... It was a big family. There were eight children. One died very young. So, there were seven children in my mother's side.
12:35So, all I know is about my mother's side, I know a lot. She loves to talk about it.
12:43Yeah. And so, how was the life? At the beginning it was okay when you went to Vrasov and living with your aunt?
12:51Oh, it was great. I remember going to lovely resto, cafes and this and that. And then it wasn't in the beginning until so-called final solution, 42.
13:07Theoretically you were supposed to go to ghetto. But you could live outside of ghetto. So, we lived with our aunt for about a year and then they rented part of the villa in the nice part of Warsaw. So, life was extremely good.
13:33And you were... Your family had blonde hair or you were...
13:39I am... Why I have blonde hair? I suspect something happened somewhere. They were laughing because I was...
13:53I said, there were people who knew. I said, when I was a child, I was a Jew.
13:59She said, who would believe you are a Jew? You look like Hitler, you get.
14:05I had blue eyes and white... I did Aryan.
14:12Yeah. Some children were stolen when they looked too good.
14:16Oh, I was even better. I looked like a jerk.
14:22But your parents had dark hair. They didn't look like...
14:26Different. My father had dark hair. My mother had reddish hair. Reddish brown.
14:37And on my mother's side, nobody would recognize that they are Jews.
14:44Ah. That was helpful at that time.
14:47Well, not helpful. It was critical.
14:53Because I... We didn't get... But you wanted before the war something or you are not interested?
14:59Um... Yes. If you remember something before the war?
15:03I remember fragments.
15:05First fragment of my life is we went to the sea for vacation.
15:12And I... First my memory is smell.
15:17Not visual. Smell of the deck of the boat. They took some tourist boat.
15:25And I remember this smell of sea and thing.
15:30I remember various smells.
15:34My... And I remember too, when my older cousin, her bar mitzvah...
15:42I didn't know what bar mitzvah is, but it wasn't religious, wasn't in any synagogue.
15:48The synagogue was at home. And their home. And, you know, I was...
15:57Everybody wanted to show. I remember I was dressed, it's best.
16:03And recited long poem and...
16:07It was clapping. That's my memory.
16:11Nice. Nice.
16:13It was a very nice childhood. I only supposed to have one very bad...
16:22Because they, you know, they were on the level that they...
16:26My mother always had a servant.
16:30But for me, they have also separate kind of nanny.
16:35And she was apparently bad.
16:41But you don't remember, but...
16:43No. There were stories.
16:45Okay.
16:46Which I remember.
16:47And did you see a change in the ghetto?
16:50After... When... In 1942, when...
16:53No, we were not in ghetto. We will be not talking.
16:57Yes. So when did you escape the ghetto?
17:01We didn't...
17:03We went...
17:05It was the idea, let's try ghetto.
17:08Because we were outside of ghetto.
17:11And living okay.
17:13Well, okay.
17:14Because Polats didn't live okay either.
17:17So, once my father...
17:19Just in tramway.
17:21Germans.
17:23I'm sorry.
17:24We didn't...
17:25Nobody used the word Nazis or Hitler.
17:28No.
17:29It was Germans.
17:30So I can now start to be politically correct.
17:34Germans.
17:36What?
17:37Yeah.
17:38You...
17:39You're right.
17:40No, no.
17:41It was like that.
17:42There were...
17:43There were good Germans and bad Germans.
17:45But there were Germans.
17:46That's what it was.
17:48So Germans...
17:50Arrested.
17:51Took...
17:52Polacks.
17:53Everybody.
17:54Who know.
17:55Who could be...
17:56You could be French.
17:57Could be anybody.
17:58The whole people who were in tramway.
18:01Put to the jail.
18:03Part...
18:05Brrrr.
18:06And part let go.
18:08Randomly.
18:09Just to terrorize.
18:11To terrorize.
18:12To fear.
18:14So people could be afraid of them.
18:17So...
18:19That was...
18:20Before ghetto.
18:21The...
18:22This...
18:23Moment...
18:24Which I remember.
18:25My mother was extremely...
18:28Fear what happened with him.
18:31And suddenly here...
18:32Oh.
18:33Right.
18:34Released.
18:35And so...
18:36But...
18:37Then we decided to go for a...
18:40Ghetto.
18:42We lived with some family, which I don't know what.
18:46Life was suddenly very different because we were squished in one of the old big Warsaw apartments.
19:03The Germans are randomly part of Warsaw.
19:06They say that's ghetto.
19:08There was no particular Jews there.
19:11There was no Jewish area in Warsaw.
19:14They were spread.
19:16So we were in this ghetto.
19:20My...
19:21Two memories I have from the ghetto.
19:25One, I have a canary who flew through the window and I was heartbroken.
19:32And second, we were walking in the street and I see there are people lying on the trottoir, covered with newspapers.
19:45I asked, who are they?
19:47So...
19:48Somebody who was my mother, father, or somebody...
19:52Well, that's people who died from hunger and froze during the night.
19:59Then I...
20:01Had a little taste...
20:04What this whole thing is.
20:07But my parents quickly decided to leave the ghetto.
20:14There was a whole system.
20:16There were Polaks who arranged, who paid.
20:20They were not shysters.
20:23Sorry, I'm using this Jewish word.
20:26Now it's in Polish.
20:29In every language.
20:31They were...
20:32They were paid and they did their job.
20:36They were in the old...
20:38Also were old houses and there are, you know, like...
20:44How do you call?
20:47Not basement.
20:49Sellers.
20:51Huge sellers and they were connected.
20:54So they make breaks between sellers.
20:59And through the sellers, like tunnels, under the wall or wherever was the thing, you were going...
21:12It was called...
21:13I will use this language which was used...
21:16On Aryan side.
21:19And there was somebody waiting for us.
21:22Probably my aunt.
21:25And we went to a little town called Opatów, Kielecki, where brother of my mother, which I didn't know...
21:41I learned now from this lady in Poland.
21:46He was incredibly just considered a hero.
21:52There was German allowed at that time in this little town.
21:57There was no ghetto there.
21:59Because there were only Jews in this town.
22:03There were towns, little towns in Poland.
22:06And hardly any Polacks lived.
22:08And so we lived outside of the town.
22:12But there was called Judenrat.
22:16It was Seger getting some money to help other Jewish community.
22:25And he was the manager of this, my supposed useless uncle Max, who was a leader of this thing.
22:42And he hired my father, who was checking if the money they don't steal, they don't make something, if the money are well spent.
22:54So even when you were in this village, you had the sign...
22:59Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
23:02We didn't say...
23:04Nobody asked questions and nobody knew anything.
23:09In this village, they knew that we were Jews, but there wasn't a big deal.
23:20So there were Jews who were in the city, who were doing...
23:25And I saw this woman.
23:27It was like going to some...
23:30Three at least century back.
23:34You know, in perucas.
23:36And going in the Friday to this big stove with...
23:41To bake havas and this kind of thing.
23:44Which was quite, for me as a child, interesting.
23:49But we were in this town because my uncle, this Max,
23:58married daughter of some...
24:04Some person, some family from the town.
24:08And she decided to be...
24:10It's called in Poland...
24:13It was completely wanted to be assimilated,
24:18to learn good Polish, go to Polish schools, etc.
24:23That most of the Jewish intelligentsia was like.
24:27But my uncle was...
24:29They were part of my family were Zionists.
24:33But it is completely different than now.
24:36It was supremely idealistic.
24:39And they wanted to go to this land.
24:43And my uncle was poet.
24:47So he translated the most famous 19th century epope, Polish epope, into Hebrew.
24:59Nice.
25:00But it is lost.
25:02She was searching for it.
25:04But it was burned, probably.
25:08They survived also, this...
25:10That's a different story, which you probably...
25:16Maybe if you know a little bit about Polish...
25:20My nightmare.
25:21There, in 1943, a Jew, and a very high Gestapo officer, you know, with money, too many things, this Jew made a deal with this German.
25:48They made fake passports, fake American passport and Palestinian passport.
25:59No, there was no Israel, it was Palestine.
26:02And they say that they will go to these camps for foreigners.
26:10Which Germans...
26:12Which Germans...
26:13It was tough, but you could...
26:15You could...
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