- 5/8/2025
In an exclusive Oneindia interview, host Pankaj Mishra speaks with Lt Gen PJS Pannu (Retd), former Deputy Chief of Integrated Defence Staff, about the complex dynamics of the India-Pakistan conflict. The conversation unpacks deep military strategies, geopolitical undercurrents, and the unseen facets of past confrontations. Lt Gen Pannu provides rare insight into strategic deterrence, defence readiness, and the evolving security landscape in South Asia. The interview offers critical perspective for anyone seeking to understand the deeper truths behind the regional military tension.
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NewsTranscript
00:00How would you assess the scale and precision of India's response?
00:05The Indian strike, which is aerial strike, has not been on any infrastructure, civilian area or military installations of Pakistan.
00:18Was this a tactical or a strategic message to Pakistan?
00:22This is where there is a big difference on a strategic, very specific, well thought out targets deep within Pakistan on a broader front.
00:32How do you view this? How important and how crucial it is?
00:36This is a very different time where if Pakistan retaliates in any which manner, militarily, politically or diplomatically, I think all sides have been well taken care of.
00:50As the beginning of some sort of a deadlock on the Western front, or do you see the end soon?
00:58Business of warfare and warfare of business both are coming together and they will only be too happy, content, selling arms and ammunition to Pakistan, making it rich either in dollars or in euros or in pounds or whatever.
01:11So India's image as a regional power, how will you find me at it?
01:16I don't think so. Our neighbours would want India to become anywhere to be seen as a global power.
01:24All right. So May 7th has definitely gone down in the history books with India launching attacks on Pakistan, not just within the territory of Pakistan, but also at several locations in POJK.
01:41And this is something that not just India and Pakistan, but the whole world is talking.
01:46Lots of perspectives coming out of that to discuss the matters further, to unravel what comes ahead of this particular attack that India has carried out.
01:59We are joined by Lieutenant General PGS Pannu. He is PBSM, ABSM, BSM, and former Deputy Chief of Indian Integrated Defence Staff.
02:10Lieutenant General Pannu, thank you so much for speaking to One India.
02:13Thank you, Pankaj, for getting me over to your channel.
02:16Yes, it has been a very trying day. Since morning, there has been an international curiosity of what is happening between two nations.
02:26So I'll be happy to discuss.
02:29Right indeed, sir. Let's quickly get into the conversation here. How would you assess the scale and precision of India's response to the Dastarly Pahlgaam attack on April 22nd?
02:44And was this a tactical or a strategic message to Pakistan?
02:49Pankaj, you know, at this scale, when right from the Pakistan-occupied Kashmir to opposite of Rajasthan, which is Pakistan-Punjab, it's a very large front.
03:01And I think the depth of the targets is also such that you certainly cannot call it tactical. It is strategic.
03:07However, the Indian strike, which is aerial strike, has not been on any infrastructure, civilian area, or military installations of Pakistan.
03:23And the targets seem to have been chosen very carefully this time, only to hit the terror bases.
03:30And when you talk about the terror camps, earlier we were talking about the launch pads.
03:36You know, if you go back to Belakote and host Uri, the surgical strikes had actually happened on the launch pads, which were very shallow, which was very close to the line of control.
03:47But what has happened now is that India has specifically chosen the bases or the headquarters or the large training areas where the recruitment, motivation, equipping, finance,
04:03where the Pakistan army, and the terrorists sit together with their leaders, they plan in a very strategic manner, how to carry on the thousand-cut proxy war against India, which has been going on over three decades.
04:22These are the camps which have been actually located in depth areas, sitting in very safe, secure, and protected areas by the Pakistan military.
04:36And these have been hit post-Pelagam carnage of 22nd of April.
04:42Pakistan may not have realized, they must be thinking that India will only run around jungles and try to find the actual attackers within the soil of India.
04:54But ultimately what has happened is that they have fallen into the entire game of their own, where they were running a proxy war, sitting from the safe havens, and trying to create terror on the Indian soil.
05:08I think the terror has actually now been transferred onto their soil in their own terrorist bases.
05:15So this is where there is a big difference on a strategic, very specific, well-thought-out targets deep within Pakistan on a broader front.
05:25Indeed, indeed, left in general.
05:27And also, when it comes to the coordination of this operation across the Tri-Series and intelligence agencies, given your experience in integrated defense planning, how do you view this?
05:44How important and how crucial it is?
05:47Pankaj, first and foremost, whenever any planning happens, it happens at the highest level.
05:52And there are highest political levels where the decisions are taken.
05:57And under the CCS, where the four ministries, the whole finance, defense, and external affairs are said together, in the prime minister's presence, they talk about what needs to be done.
06:08And once the CCS takes a decision, then it is actually whole-of-nation which prepares to go to war.
06:14Whether they go to war as a whole-of-nation or not is another matter altogether.
06:18But what I see now is that the strikes have happened, but the preparations are being made all across in many states, all across where the entire nation is not only concerned, but also participating in preparatory activities.
06:38So, you find that this is a very different time, where if Pakistan retaliates in any which manner, militarily, politically, or diplomatically, I think all sides have been well taken care of.
06:55So, India is prepared.
06:57Also, but India has made a very specific announcement that after striking these targets, India said that we are not going to escalate.
07:06So, therefore, any onus of further escalation completely and completely lies on Pakistan.
07:12So, now it is Pakistan's responsibility to ensure peace, because it is Pakistan which actually disturbed the peace, and now whatever had to happen has happened.
07:23And hereafter, it is the responsibility of Pakistan to make sure that two nuclear-armed states are at peace.
07:31If Pakistan does not understand that, I think it will pay more.
07:34Ineed, I mean, it's a catch-22 situation.
07:38And as a saying goes in Hindi,
07:41How much Pakistan would be able to understand that India's precision strikes are only targeted, only and only targeted at these terror camps,
07:54which Pakistan has been harboring for the longest period of time, and has been constantly called out also.
08:01So, left in general, Pannu, there are two things to it, as you mentioned.
08:07First is whether Pakistan wants to make peace or not, maintain peace or not.
08:13And secondly, the longevity, the sustainability of this military posturing along the Western Front for India.
08:21Pankaj, do you see this one-off retaliatory strike as, till date, as the beginning of some sort of a deadlock on the Western Front?
08:34Or do you see the end soon?
08:36Pankaj, you would have realized that when Ukraine and Russia went to war, one thought that these are going to be intense wars and short wars.
08:49And in fact, people have been talking about that.
08:52These days, you can only have short, intense wars.
08:56The war steminas of countries were only built to last as long as one or two months, not more, and that too, sometimes novel and sometimes intense.
09:05Right.
09:06But what has happened differently this time is that the Russian-Ukraine conflict doesn't come to an end.
09:15And it's almost now stepping into the fourth year and the Israel conflict with Hamas.
09:21And look at the size of Hamas.
09:22It has actually gone to a place now.
09:25It is second year, third year.
09:27I don't know how long because there is no peace in sight.
09:31In fact, the arc of violence in the Middle East has only increased.
09:36You see, the Iranians got into it.
09:39There were attacks and conflict attacks.
09:41And the Syrians have been drawn into it.
09:43Lebanon got drawn into it.
09:46A lot of movement happened in the Mediterranean.
09:49The Houthis in Yemen have also been attacking.
09:53And the shipping has been affected there.
09:55So one was expecting that the conventional policing nations like the United States would come and step in.
10:06But I don't think so.
10:09Today, the United States has got anything left.
10:13It is America first.
10:16And I think America alone.
10:18So when you are talking about America first and America alone,
10:22so I think they have stepped back from the global responsibility of peace.
10:26America first and the United States are more into deal-making or making sure that they are supplying arms and ammunition,
10:34making business and quick business out of it.
10:36So the military industrial complexes of China, Russia, US, the European countries have been doing a very quick business.
10:46So the business of warfare and warfare of business both are coming together.
10:52Where A, the global policing role of the superpowers is no more relevant.
10:58The United Nations, which was basically created after Second World War to ensure that there is no Third World War.
11:04So you saw it during COVID that the United Nations could not do much.
11:09In any case, the P5 nations have a huge amount of disagreements.
11:15Russia, US, the major aggressors to one another are the ones who are, how can the P5 be fighting?
11:24And then you expect the United Nations to remain relevant to global peace.
11:28As a result, with the absence of institutions like UN or weakening of the institutions like UN
11:38and the superpowers stepping back into their own nation first approach,
11:44there is very little that would happen.
11:47If two nations go to war, they will have to fend for themselves.
11:50And I think Pakistan should not go back to thinking that, you know,
11:54Americans will jump in to say, hey, stop it, stop it.
11:56So UN will come and say, stop it, stop it.
11:58I don't actually, absolutely.
12:00Yeah, please, please carry on that.
12:01So responsibility now entirely lies on the leadership of Pakistan.
12:06And really speaking, when you say who are the leaders in Pakistan,
12:09really speaking, you can't name because you will put question marks on every person
12:16who is either having a semblance of any leadership.
12:22Nawaz Sharif was in power and the same party is in power.
12:28Nawaz Sharif was in power during Kargil.
12:30He had no idea what the military was doing.
12:32And now his brother is in power and the same party is in power
12:35and they will have no idea what the military is doing.
12:38A person who could check the military, Imran Khan, is put behind bars.
12:44So internally, Pakistan has become very weak economically.
12:50Military has to find its own relevance because the houses of the co-commanders
12:56were also attacked by the awam of Pakistan.
13:00They have completely lost the credibility of the military.
13:03The military is being ambushed.
13:07The trains and the convoys are being hijacked in Balochistan
13:12and North West Frontier province.
13:15Afghanistan finds Jordan land to be absolutely irrelevant.
13:21And now the only way to get Pakistan gets its strategic depth
13:29with Afghanistan being on its back for quite some time now.
13:33The only way to get Afghanistan off their back is to start saying,
13:37hey, this is holy war, this is Islamic war and you are Islamic,
13:40so you are our brothers.
13:41And secondly, get all the terrorists put together and support the army.
13:46And at the end of it, it is only one person who is going to benefit out of it.
13:50It is the chief of army staff of Pakistan Army
13:52who would have actually retired.
13:55And he would have had no fix because he would have brought his army
13:59to the lowest ever.
14:01And how could he retire because people would have in any case targeted him.
14:05So he wants to secure it.
14:07It is one man's war, actually.
14:09It is the chief of army staff of Pakistan
14:11who has been talking about two-nation theory,
14:14the juggler reign of Pakistan and Kashmir.
14:18And he has been talking about things which have been very,
14:21very irrelevant in the past.
14:22And he has brought all that back.
14:23And of course, Bangladesh also now, partly into folds of Pakistan,
14:29they feel that the 1971 reverses could be rewritten.
14:34I think there is a larger belief that they have.
14:38So therefore, I think for India, it is very important
14:41that both nations should find peace.
14:45Both nations should find that their people deserve peaceful economic growth
14:51and prosperity rather than bringing the whole subcontinent down
14:56to rubble where people will be in poverty back.
15:01Because Western world has been very happy to see India-Pakistan fight.
15:04I don't think that the Western world will come and bail us out.
15:08So I think India and Pakistan must realize that
15:11if there is a war between India and Pakistan,
15:14the cheerleaders are again going to be the Western world.
15:16And they will only be too happy, content selling arms and ammunition to Pakistan
15:20making goods rich either in dollars or in euros or in pounds or whatever.
15:26So I think one has to be very careful to venture into all this.
15:29Indeed, indeed.
15:30The words of wisdom, I would say, left in general here.
15:32This brings me to the final question here, left in general.
15:37When it comes to either cautioning or having a locus stand-eye
15:44in this global matrix of diplomacy, of international relations,
15:53geopolitically, how do you assess the impact of this tribe,
15:57especially in terms of global diplomacy, maybe deterrence also for Pakistan
16:03and for India's image as a regional power, if I may add?
16:09Actually, a powerful nation has all the strategies in place of deterrence
16:17and deterrence enables a country to avoid a war.
16:23You make yourself so powerful and no country dare to do anything against you
16:30because you have deterrence in place.
16:33India obviously invested in nuclear weaponization program for deterrence,
16:40also having offensive capability as strike cores as deterrence,
16:45making sure that economically India becomes strong and builds its own industry.
16:53But I think India was still a work in progress or still is a work in progress
16:57to become a power where by its own comprehensive national power per se,
17:06we could avoid a war.
17:07I think the entire statecraft should have worked towards war avoidance through deterrence.
17:16And if you have not been able to avoid the war, I think we have to limit war
17:20to make sure that we go back to a developing nation
17:25or a nation which should become at least a regional power which we are,
17:30from regional power at least to reckon ourselves to be global powers.
17:36I don't think so our neighbors would want India to become anywhere to be seen as a global power.
17:45So I think it is entirely for India to invest in certain strategies to make sure
17:52that we take our country towards peaceful growth, emerge as powerful,
17:59invest in technology, invest in economy, invest in industry, become a manufacturing hub.
18:05A lot of movement is and was already happening through the trade wars
18:10that India was to get more opportunities.
18:13But I think Pakistan has more or less brought India to a point
18:18that India should not be allowed to grow peacefully.
18:22So therefore, the war has been brought by Pakistan to our feet.
18:26But now it is up to our leaders how we bring back our nation to limit this,
18:33even if we have to fight a war to be peaceful.
18:37Well, that is one option.
18:38To avoid a war and be peaceful is another option.
18:41I think this is entire maneuvering which we expect our mature leadership
18:45of two countries or at least in India to work out certain solutions.
18:49Indeed, Lieutenant Pannu, thank you so much for speaking to us
18:52and bringing into perspective the dynamics that are changing so thick and fast
18:58that keeping focus on the bigger picture at times becomes difficult,
19:04at least for the masses.
19:06I would say, yes, as far as the leadership is concerned,
19:09a lot is expected from both sides.
19:12And India, in its all right and might,
19:14has been bearing the brunt of this cross-border terrorism
19:18and the proxy war and feeding the terrorists on their soil.
19:23Pakistan has been at it for the longest period of time.
19:27So this particular move, obviously, had become almost the call of the hour.
19:34Thank you so much, Lieutenant Pannu, for taking time out for 1India.
19:38Thank you, Pankaj.
19:39It was a pleasure talking to you.
19:41Same, sir.
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