00:00Mukul Rothgi is one of the country's distinguished senior advocates, former Attorney General
00:05of the country. Appreciate your joining us, Mr. Rothgi. I want to ask you,
00:11what is your view? Do you believe that this case will be swept under the carpet as some fear
00:17or is it moving in the right direction?
00:22It's a serious issue. I think it is moving in the right direction.
00:28The Chief Justice of India has acted with alacrity by appointing an in-house committee
00:37as soon as possible. There has been no dragging of feet. The only puzzling thing which I have
00:47been saying on the different channels in the last two, three days is, where is the recovery of the
00:54cash? There seems to be no recovery. Either it has been completely swept away. Where are the
01:04half burnt notes? That is the evidence. Primary evidence has gone away. What was the police doing
01:12when it reached there? Why did it not seize the evidence? Why did it not make a panch nama
01:18with two independent witnesses? If there is a huge amount of cash, some cash must have been
01:24unburnt or semi burnt. How did income tax not come into the picture? These are very worrying things.
01:33How is it that when the Chief Justice sent a person the next day, did he see any cash? Did
01:41he not see any cash? Please understand, you can't have a murder without a body being
01:48found. The second thing which I want to say is, see transfer or no transfer. The correct thing was
01:58that judicial work was withdrawn because you can't have a person in a doubtful situation sitting on
02:04the bench dispensing justice. But the transfer in any case has to be first accepted by the
02:11Government of India. This transfer does not take effect on its own. God knows what view the
02:17government will take. But the transfer, another mystifying thing is that the Supreme Court is on
02:25record saying that this transfer has nothing to do with the in-house inquiry. I am baffled to hear
02:33that. According to me, it has everything to do with this episode and this inquiry. And in fact,
02:40the transfer, according to me, is clearly punitive. It is not for any other reason,
02:49except that the judge should maybe kind of taught a lesson and so on and so forth.
02:58You're making important news points that I'm going to ask my producer to flash on the screen
03:02because the fact is, and I want clarity on this from you Mr. Rothgi, you're saying the police
03:07panchnama, why was that not put in place? You're saying where is the actual evidence which could
03:14be half burnt or some notes that were not burnt? You're telling me that you're surprised that the
03:20income tax has still not given a statement on where they stand. Is there an income tax inquiry?
03:25Now, there are two views Mr. Rothgi. One is the judge himself is claiming this could be a
03:30conspiracy against him that he had nothing to do with the cash that was found in his house.
03:34The other is that this is the tip of the iceberg, that this cash could be part of a wider net,
03:40which could involve the judge. We don't know. It would be unfair to target him at this stage. But
03:45either way, you're saying that the police and the income tax and the fire department
03:51also need to come clean. Am I correct? And come public with their statements.
03:56Absolutely correct. Because we have had two contradictory statements of the fire department
04:01in two days. So, what is your suspicion? What is your suspicion Mr. Rothgi? Was someone trying
04:10to protect the judge? Or is this a classic case where we're not being told the entire truth?
04:18I don't know Rajdeep, but all the facts are not on the table. If you were to ask me,
04:25let's say one side of the coin is that huge amounts of money is found in a judge's house.
04:33That ipso facto damns the judge and a very serious explanation is required from him.
04:41The other part of the coin is, where are those notes in four gunny bags?
04:48Who brought them? Was it genuine money or was it fake money? Who would burn so much money
04:59and keep it or allow it to be burned and keep it in an outhouse? Everybody puts even a hundred
05:07rupee note in one's pocket. How could anybody keep it in an outhouse which may be accessed by
05:13different people? And the judge wasn't there that day. He arrived after 24 hours.
05:21He says that there was no money. Actually, the only evidence we have is that blurred video
05:29which you are showing on the screen just now, which also has half burnt or semi burnt notes
05:34I can see on the screen. Sir, but that video Mr. Rothgi has been put out by the Supreme Court
05:41itself. So, the Supreme Court itself. So, therefore, I wonder is someone trying to fix
05:46the judge in your view? Is that a real fear? I don't know. So, these are very puzzling issues.
05:52If somebody wants to fix the judge, would you burn 20 crores of good currency or was it fake
06:00currency or was it a mix? That one bag may have real currency, the others may have fake currency.
06:07You require a forensic probe. Now, no probe is possible because everything has gone away.
06:13The first thing is the commissioner of police must explain why was not the half burnt note seized
06:21or if not seized by him, income tax should have been called. What has happened to that kind of
06:29thing? What is the report that he gave to the Home Minister as to what he found? Is it at variance
06:36with the fire department? And to top it all, today's newspaper says that the Safai Karamcharis
06:44of the NDMC found evidence of burnt notes or semi burnt notes in the raddi or the rubbish
06:53mixed with leaves because this is spring, onset of spring, all along the footpath outside the house.
07:04I don't know what is really happening.
07:09Sir, from what you're saying, look, would I be right in saying Mr. Rodhki that judges
07:14themselves through an in-house inquiry cannot become police investigators.
07:20These loopholes that you're pointing out clearly therefore require a multi-agency probe, not just
07:25a judicial in-house inquiry. Do you therefore believe that there should be a SIT form which
07:30should include income tax, include police and a time-bound probe be put in place?
07:36You are right, but there are some stumbling blocks there. The law requires this in-house
07:43informal inquiry by three judges which has been ordered. Let us hope they do their job in the
07:50next two weeks because this cannot brook any delay. On one side, evidence is disappearing.
07:57The judge, if he is guilty, he must be wrapped for moral turpitude. If the judge is innocent,
08:05his reputation has become mud, it should be cleared at the earliest. So, let's hope
08:10they give a verdict as soon as possible. But as you said, there cannot be the end of it.
08:16For the simple reason, you require the police, maybe the income tax, maybe a forensic department.
08:23You have to examine the CDR of the judge for the last three months. You have to examine CCTVs. You
08:30need specialists to do that. A judge can't examine a CDR and come to a conclusion and examine a CCTV
08:37whether the CCTV is functional, whether it is fudged, whether every video is not ipso facto
08:45evidence. It has to be proved in accordance with law that there is a proper video, it's not a
08:51doctored video, etc. So, you require a full-blown inquiry. Now, for a full-blown inquiry,
08:58you require the registration of a first information report. A first information
09:03report and investigation in the case of higher judiciary can only be with the consent of the
09:08Chief Justice of India. Because as you understand, judges are very vulnerable to millions of
09:14complaints every day. Because every disgruntled person will make a complaint. I know for a fact,
09:2099.9% complaints are rubbish. But that's why you require one more layer.
09:28Can I therefore ask you in conclusion, as you say you require one more layer,
09:32do you believe this is the tip of the iceberg? That what has happened is actually exposing what
09:37is one of the worst kept secrets. Some believe that there is corruption in the higher judiciary.
09:43Can we say that now with any conclusiveness? I don't think you can say it today. Because as I
09:50told you, there are strong points on either side. We don't know what is the final conclusion till
09:58at least we get a report of these three judges. It will throw some light and then one will decide
10:04how to go forward. But undoubtedly, it's a sad day in the life of the judiciary
10:11that these things are happening. The earlier we get to the bottom of it, it's better.
10:16And let me end by saying, the real way out is to have a structured revamp of these kind of inquiries
10:25and the process of impeachment, which is virtually impossible. Because the final step
10:31is impeachment. Impeachment has not happened in the last 75 years of the Constitution.
10:36You have to have a better system. Impeachment is not the correct system.
10:42I will still therefore ask you, and I will be going to judges in a moment
10:46as to whether impeachment actually works or not. But do you believe, therefore,
10:53that Justice Verma should not be assigned any cases? He's been transferred to Allahabad,
10:58the lawyers there are threatening to go on a strike. Do you believe he should not be assigned
11:02any cases till this matter is clear? Yes, I don't think he should be assigned any work,
11:07at least till the report of the three judges ordered by the Chief Justice of India. And I
11:12must say at the end, and I've said it earlier, full marks to the Chief Justice of India for
11:19making all this transparent. At least we have seen the video. We have seen the report of the
11:25Chief Justice of the High Court. We have seen the explanation of the judge. Normally, this would not
11:30have come out on public domain a few months or a few steps later. But at least the Supreme Court,
11:38for the first time, has been more than transparent. And I say kudos to the Chief Justice of India.
11:44Okay, I'm going to leave it there, Mukul Rothgi. I appreciate you joining us and speaking with such
11:49clarity on the issue, saying that this cannot be just dealt with as a single agency probe.
11:54It really requires now multiple layers to operate for the truth to come out. Thank you very much.
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