Days after the riots broke out in Nagpur, the RSS on Wednesday condemned the incident, saying any form of violence is detrimental to the society's well-being and described the 17th-century Mughal emperor Aurangzeb as "irrelevant".
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00:00So let's raise those questions that that disturbing story and those riots have raised.
00:05Was the Nagpur violence pre-planned as claimed by the Chief Minister?
00:09Or are we seeing a law and order breakdown that caught the police napping?
00:13What should the police be doing in such situations to ensure peace?
00:18I'm joined by Miran Chaddha Borvankar, former police commissioner in Pune.
00:25Jammu Anand is a Nagpur-based social activist, has taken up many such cases in Nagpur
00:31where public has been affected and taken on the politicians in particular.
00:37And Vivek Deshpande is a senior journalist who's been in Nagpur for several years.
00:43I appreciate you joining us on the show.
00:46Ms. Borvankar, I want to ask you at the very outset,
00:51when you see those images that have been played out where the police has been targeted,
00:56where now we are told even women cops were targeted.
00:59What's your sense? Was this pre-planned, you believe, given the scale of it?
01:04Or do you believe there was an element of spontaneity of an action and a reaction?
01:11Looking at the atmosphere in Maharashtra and the kind of irresponsible statements being made by those in power,
01:20I was waiting for it. I knew it is coming.
01:24So when even a retired police officer can see it coming,
01:30a citizen on the ground, especially if he or she is a mischievous one,
01:35they not only see it coming, they plan for it.
01:38Once they plan for it, even a protest, once it turns into a mob, you lose total control.
01:46Then not only do they protest, they become violent. They don't even spare women, children.
01:52So this is Maharashtra government should have seen it coming.
01:57What do you mean by Maharashtra government should have seen it coming?
02:01Let me give some context to our viewers. As you say, there have been inflammatory speeches made about raising Aurangzeb's tomb.
02:10They have been made and there have been past clashes.
02:13I want to give our viewers a sense of chronology and I'll come back to you, ma'am.
02:1631st March 2023, we had seen clashes in Mumbai during a Ram Navmi procession in Malad.
02:2331st March 2023, Chhatrapati Shambhaji Nagar in Maharashtra,
02:28a mob pelted stones at a police near a temple on the eve of Ram Navmi.
02:334th April 2023 in Jalgaon, there were clashes over processions playing loud music outside a mosque.
02:40In Ahmednagar, 14th May 2023, clashes during a procession on Chhatrapati Shambhaji Maharaj Jayanti.
02:47In June 2023, Maharashtra's Aurangzeb's poster flashed in Ahmednagar, led to riots.
02:53The same thing also happened in Kolhapur. Aurangzeb effigies then were burnt in Mumbai.
02:58September 2024, Bhiwandi communal tension during a Ganpati Visarjan procession.
03:04March 17, 2025, we are seeing this happening in Nagpur.
03:10I also want to add Satara, where we also saw communal clashes two years ago.
03:15So, when you say the police should have seen it coming, Meeran Borwankar,
03:19are you referring to what I just showed, that there is a pattern emerging in Maharashtra over the last couple of years?
03:26Yes, definitely. And I would not blame anyone except the political leadership.
03:32Of all parties, not of any particular party.
03:36You are making it very serious. You are claiming that the politicians are the ones who are fanning these flames, is it?
03:43Yeah, they are fanning it. And the statements, if you hear them talk, I mean like, how can either community remain silent?
03:52Somebody is going to play mischief and you are playing with fire.
03:56You know, you are making again very strong comments and I want to play some of those inflammatory remarks.
04:02Nitesh Rane is a minister in the Maharashtra government and he is the one who is being accused of making very threatening statements in public,
04:10which are seen as pure hate speech, gets away with it. Also, in the last couple of weeks, T. Raja Singh, Telangana MLA has been in Maharashtra addressing public rallies.
04:20Listen in to what both of them have had to say in recent times and then I will come to the other guests.
04:51The atrocities committed by Aurangzeb cannot be forgotten now.
04:54That is why today there is a lot of pressure in the whole of India.
04:57There is an atmosphere that in this situation, the news of Aurangzeb should be blown up.
05:04And look at the upcoming elections. If this government does not blow up today, but in the coming time it will blow up 100%.
05:12The news that will be blown up, the people of Maharashtra will give it power and it will become an atmosphere.
05:18Those are comments being made by our leader.
05:22Jammu Anand, you have been watching Maharashtra leaders over the years.
05:25Are you seeing now, on both sides of the divide, when I look at even Abu Azmi's statements and I will play Abu Azmi also in a moment,
05:32that a sense of a Hindu-Muslim conflict is being built up into Maharashtra, the latest being this demand that Aurangzeb's tomb be razed.
05:48See, Rajdeep, I totally agree with the former police officer Meera Tai.
05:59Actually, for last couple of years, this is being in making.
06:04And as you rightly put out the chronology of events, how the communal flare-up is being built in Maharashtra.
06:16And after this Chhawa film released, on record, the Chief Minister Deven Fadnavis admitted that it is the impact of the Chhawa film.
06:30And he attributed the film is mainly responsible. But the particular, the BJP and Bajrang Dal, Vishwindu Parishad,
06:43for couple of years, they are trying to create a situation where the communal peace of Maharashtra
06:52and the Maharashtra society should be polarized between Hindus and Muslims.
06:57And Aurangzeb, of course, for last many years, these forces were trying to rake up this issue.
07:07And in making that, they got Nagpur, which is one of the oldest cities, and known for peace, communal harmony.
07:17And many communities lived for years together in very peaceful manner.
07:24And day before yesterday's incident has brought a blot on the Nagpur.
07:31Actually, the entire intelligence and the police in particular.
07:36Okay, one minute. Vivek Deshpande, you are someone who has been covering Nagpur and Vidarbha extensively over the last couple of decades.
07:44Why Nagpur? You see, the question is, many of these inflammatory speeches have been made in other parts of Maharashtra.
07:51In Pune, in Mumbai, in Thane. How come Nagpur got affected? What happened?
07:56It seems, according to some, that Muslim groups were mobilized. They were waiting for an opportunity.
08:03The key accused, Fahim Khan, is seen to have contested the Lok Sabha elections, running his own little party.
08:11Are the Muslim groups also waiting for this opportunity to strike back?
08:16Rajdeep, I think we have to see this whole thing in totality. You have read the chronology,
08:23but I think the chronology dates back to at least about three years, ever since the so-called Sakal Hindu Samaj rallies are being held in Maharashtra.
08:32And Muslims are being provoked into some kind of reaction, which I think has come at Nagpur, finally.
08:40Over the last two, three years, Muslims have not retorted or they have not reacted with as much vengeance with which they have reacted at Nagpur.
08:50So, I think Nagpur just becomes the destination where this outpouring has to be.
08:57No, no, but why now, Vivek, and who is Fahim Khan? I mean, you are saying the Sakal Hindu Samaj has been carrying on these agitations on issues like Love Jihad and other issues for the last few years.
09:09Who is Fahim Khan and why would he get involved in this, according to you?
09:14Rajdeep, I think we know very little about this man called Fahim Khan because his name has cropped up only today.
09:21The only fact that he has fought Lok Sabha election doesn't suffice to make an opinion about him.
09:27And I think he is the guy who had first gone to the police station to register a complaint against the Bajrang Dal activists who had kind of burnt some chadar where kalmas and aithas of Quran were written.
09:42One could see the chadar but one could not see what was written on it. But why was the chadar burnt there? That is the question.
09:49So, he went to the police station apparently to register a complaint. Police did not take any cognizance. That is the version that comes from the other side.
09:58So, if the police have not taken cognizance of this complaint, it must have made the Muslims angry.
10:05The fact that they reacted in such a violent manner shows that it was pre-planned because they were ready for it.
10:11Now, it was not just pre-planned from this side. It was also pre-planned from the Hindu side.
10:17Because if this was pre-planned as one of the BJP's MLAs himself is saying that this is a failure of the police.
10:25How did the police not have the intelligence? So, it is possible that the police had the intelligence and they let it happen.
10:32You are making a very serious charge. The police may have had the intelligence and let it happen.
10:40Rajdeep, I am discussing two options. One is the police knew about it and they let it happen.
10:51Otherwise, if the police did not know about it, it is a failure of the police.
10:55And it is not just a failure of the police as Praveen Dutkhe who is the Central Nagpur BJP MLA has very emphatically said that it is a failure of the police.
11:04If it is a failure of the police, then I think the blame straight away goes to the Chief Minister who is handling the home portfolio.
11:11So, is Mr. Dutkhe pointing towards his own Chief Minister when he says that there was intelligence failure or the police failure?
11:19And if the police failure was not there, if the police did have the intelligence, why did they not act?
11:24And there are two questions, two sets of questions before the police. They need to answer that.
11:28So, pre-planned it seems from both the sides because Bajrang Dal organized this ridiculous protest across the state for a reason which does not concern the Hindus' daily life at all.
11:41I mean, Aurangzeb and his tomb is not a subject for which you should agitate on such a mass scale.
11:47It is not a very pressing issue for the Hindus and you are not trying to protect any Hindu interest by raking this issue up.
11:53So, it is quite orchestrated from the one side and they were waiting for the reaction from the other side and the reaction…
12:00Okay, I take your point Vivek. I take your point now. You believe that there was an element of orchestration both from Hindu groups which have been escalating communal tension and for Muslim groups who retaliated.
12:12But Miran Burwankar, the point which is being made about the police, either there is an intelligence failure or that according to some, the police was, at least that's what the Muslim side says,
12:23was only lathi charging one side, was not taking action against the other. But the images clearly have shown that after 5pm, it was the Muslim groups which mobilized,
12:34which targeted public property. Do you believe the police is even handed or has the police also got caught in this communal divide in a state like Maharashtra?
12:42So, one, I very strongly disagree that police knew about it and decided to look the other way.
12:50However, unprofessional we may be, but not to this extent that we will look the other way.
12:56Second, sitting here, you and me in our rooms and maybe your AC chambers, we can say it was a failure of intelligence.
13:06But I am telling you, four people coming to protest, immediately become 40 and then the mob you are not able to control.
13:14So, I would say that yes, police failed to anticipate the extent of violence which would take place.
13:23But the whole state has been on an alert. But when at one point the CM regrets that if we have these rights, we will lose on the investment
13:34and on the other side he says that Kabar khod ke nikal denge. You are yourself creating an atmosphere and ordinary citizen will suffer.
13:43Everyone else, all these VIPs will go with 6 boxers and 20 policemen to guard them. Nobody will guard an ordinary citizen or his vehicle.
13:53And we must make it clear to your audience and to the people on the street.
13:59You know, when I try and make this clear to the people on the street and to my audiences, I get targeted.
14:05Because I am then accused of not, of being, we are accused of protecting the rioters.
14:15The rioters, I want to make it very clear. Let me say that before I come to you, Jammu and Anand.
14:20I want to make this very clear. Violence is unacceptable. It is criminal activity.
14:25Whether the violence is perpetrated by a Muslim group led by a local aspiring politician, unacceptable.
14:33Whether you have got Hindu groups and leaders like Nitesh Rane making the kind of inflammatory remarks about raising a tomb, unacceptable.
14:42All of this is violative of the law. The question is if the law acts even handedly, then there is hope.
14:49The worry is that at times law and lawmakers do not act even handedly. And that builds further resentments.
14:57Nothing justifies the kind of criminal behavior we saw on the streets of Nagpur. I want to make that very clear.
15:05But Jammu and Anand, do you fear this will get worse or are there people, sane minds, which can bring the groups together?
15:15Are there people in Nagpur and other parts of Maharashtra who realize that if we really talk of Shivshahi,
15:22Shivaji spoke of mutual coexistence. Are there any leaders you see in Maharashtra who talk that language anymore?
15:30Say Rajdeep, now nobody talks and believes in Shivaji. Whatever the politician does
15:42against the teachings of Shivaji. The whole question of Nagpur is people of Nagpur are peace loving people.
15:51There is absolute very good relationship between various religious citizens.
15:58Hindus and Muslims were staying together for hundreds and more years and you also visited Nagpur many a times.
16:07The question is whether such an incident which happened on Monday could have been avoided or not.
16:13My take is very much it could have been avoided because the incident of burning the chadar and everything took place in the morning.
16:24And a group of youth went to the police station. But police did not act till up to the evening by 7 o'clock.
16:32And police allowed that video of burning of the chadar to play for hours together.
16:38Everybody knows this is Ramzan month and the area where the incident took place.
16:45There are three police stations come and hardly all these police stations are one kilometer distance.
16:52Ganeshpet police station, Tehsil police station and Kotwali police station.
16:56And this is the old Nagpur, very busy Nagpur. Sensitive part of the city.
17:03When Bajrang Dal and Vishwindu Parishad takes to street and does such an act and videos are played
17:13police should have taken this as serious which could even reaction may come during this Ramzan.
17:22Why the police has taken this incident of Bajrang Dal and Vishwindu Parishad so callously?
17:30In a way I would like to, means it will not be an exaggeration.
17:35Is it that the system or the administration wanted to make this whole Aurangzeb issue where such an incident should take place?
17:46Sir, I want to make that very clear. That is speculation.
17:53Whether the police wanted an incident like this to take place.
17:57I would tend to give the Maharashtra police at least a section of it the benefit of the doubt.
18:02We have some very fine police officers in Maharashtra.
18:05Let's not damn the entire police force at this stage.
18:09That would be unfair unless we have concrete proof that the police did not act in the way they did.
18:14Vivek Deshpande, my final word to you Vivek Deshpande.
18:18Do you see things getting worse before they get better given the kind of communal poison that is now being thrown into Maharashtra?
18:26Do you fear as someone who has tracked Maharashtra politics?
18:29Is Maharashtra as some fear going to become like Gujarat when it comes to division between Hindus and Muslims?
18:36Unfortunately it seems so because if the ministers and the chief minister himself is speaking in incendiary terms
18:45then I think the future of Maharashtra politics is on a very dangerous curve.
18:50So it seems that nobody wants to budge from whatever they are doing.
18:57Particularly ministers like Nitesh Rane who is talking in terms which are absolutely...
19:04I mean it calls for immediate legal action against him but nobody is taking him on.
19:10Even the chief minister is not telling him to mind his words.
19:14And the chief minister himself is speaking in these terms himself.
19:18So I think if this is beginning to be repeated at the top most level of the government
19:26then I think there is hardly anything that one can do.
19:30I am going to leave it there. Clearly the message is clear.
19:34Maharashtra's politicians are playing with fire.
19:37This is hardly what the images that we want to see coming from a state like Maharashtra
19:43which calls itself the country's industrialist heartland.
19:46You make these statements, you make your Bhadkaubhashans and then you fail to act in time.
19:54There are serious questions. The Muslims, mobs who resorted to violence must be acted against
20:01and those who resort to these inflammatory statements must be acted against.
20:06Let's be clear about that. No one must be allowed to take the law into their own hands.
20:11That is the challenge before Devendra Fadnavis' government.
20:14You can't run with the secular hair and hunt with the communal hound, Mr. Chief Minister, anymore.