Engineer Chris Binnie on the benefits of a tidal lagoon

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00:00You want me to look at the actual?

00:03Yeah, let's look straight at me. Good morning people of Somerset. It's Daniel Mumby here,

00:07your local democracy reporter, back on the chilly West Somerset coast,

00:11and I've brought a friend along with me today. Please introduce yourself for our audience.

00:15I'm mainly Chris Binney. I'm a water and hydropower engineer, and I live in Somerset.

00:22Chris, thank you very much for joining us. We're out here on the coast at Blue Anchor. You might

00:27just be able to see anchors drop over in the distance, but we're not here to talk about

00:31coastal erosion today, at least not directly. We're here to talk about the West Somerset

00:36Tidal Lagoon project, and we're going to be going into quite some detail. But for people who've

00:40never heard of the idea, who've never seen any of the articles we've run on it before,

00:44what is the idea all about in a nutshell?

00:47The idea is that in this country we are short of renewable energy. One of the

00:55ways that we can produce power is to use the difference in the tidal heights of the Bristol

01:04Channel. And what you do is you impound the water until there is an inside the lagoon and outside,

01:13so there is a difference in head, and you use the difference in head between the inside and

01:17the outside to generate power. So we are currently standing at Blue Anchor,

01:23roughly halfway between Watchet and Minehead, and if the lagoon was built we'd be standing

01:29right in the heart of things, wouldn't we? Correct.

01:32And you were giving me an idea before we started rolling of how much the view of the beach would

01:37change. Just to give us an idea, if we point out to sea, how far out would it be on a day like this?

01:43Would we be able to see it if it was built? The lagoon wall would be about seven kilometres out,

01:50and if you look out at the ship that's out there, that's probably within the lagoon

01:56will be, but to give you an idea how much of an impact it would be.

02:01So this project, obviously it's going to take a number of years to get going if it gets permission

02:06and all that, but how long have you actually been working on the idea?

02:10Three of us worked on the seven barrage studies back in 2010. We came to the conclusion it was

02:19a very good project except that it impeded navigation going up to Bristol Docks and it

02:25impeded fish migration up the Severn. So we thought, well, can we do a better scheme further

02:34down the coast? So we chose a lagoon, which is the D-shaped, rather than a barrage, so that will not

02:43affect the shipping going up to Bristol. So just to put that into context, you might just be able

02:50to see the ships that are moving up the channel in the background. It is quite a misty day,

02:55but hopefully the lens will do it justice. So the idea with the lagoon is that you're not just

03:00building a sea wall cutting off this part of the channel, that you still can have boats going in

03:06and out. Talk a bit about the practicalities of that and how big the barrier has to be to let

03:11those ships pass through. Well, with the lagoon, we only go out about a third of the distance

03:19across the Wales, so the shipping channel anyway, deep channel, is off the Welsh coast,

03:25so we would have no impedance for shipping going up to Bristol. And what about smaller scale craft

03:32like the pleasure boats that you see in Minehead Harbour at the moment? They'd have unimpeded

03:36access presumably. Absolutely, we have in mind to put a marina at Minehead, 300 berth, but the key

03:45thing is that in contrast to the other places on the Bristol channel, it would be all tide floating,

03:52because we could go out along the base of the lagoon wall until we get enough deep water,

03:59and therefore the marina, you'd always have access to your boat. So let's talk about, obviously,

04:05you're a trained engineer and there's a limit to how technical we can talk without this turning

04:11into a degree course. We should be doing this for the Open University, I suppose. But just

04:16give us an idea of how a tidal lagoon actually generates power. I mean, people know about the

04:21Severn Bore and how much water is moved through this area every day, but how do you actually turn

04:26that into electricity? Right, where we are today, there is about 10 metres of tidal range, that's

04:33between high water and low water. So you build a lagoon wall going out in a semicircle around this

04:43area of coast. You would then use the difference in head between the water in the Bristol channel

04:50and the water in the lagoon to generate hydropower, large hydropower turbines.

04:58So that's water going through turbines, which then turns that into movement and then you

05:02essentially get electricity from that. Generate the power from the tub, similar to the traditional

05:09hydropower turbines. And where would that energy get exported to? Does that go straight into the

05:13national grid or would you need to store it somewhere? That would go into the national grid

05:18and we have a link in our scheme which would go from here to Sherton, which is near Hinkley Point

05:26and would be put into the grid there. That goes through a national landscape area, so we would

05:33underground the power line going through that area to minimise visual intrusion. I think that's very

05:41comforting to a lot of people who value the beauty of the Quantocks and that surrounding area.

05:46It's great that you've brought up Hinkley Point because obviously the community around here,

05:50although not as badly affected as Bridgewater, has seen the impact of that construction programme.

05:55If you come along and propose another major power infrastructure, what do you say to people

06:00who go, well we've already got Hinkley, we don't need another big concrete monstrosity cluttering

06:04up our coast? I don't think this will be a concrete monstrosity because it would be barely seen,

06:10because it would be right out to sea. And this country needs renewable energy, so this

06:20tidal range scheme will produce renewable energy. It would not be continuous, because

06:28yet that can't be done with tidal range, but it would be predictable and it would go on

06:36regularly, every tide. You also cited that if operational this would last 120 years,

06:42which is twice the lifespan of Hinkley Point, presumably then it's relatively low maintenance

06:48in terms of how often you need to replace the turbine blades or anything like that?

06:53Correct. The Laronge scheme in France, in Brittany, has been going for virtually 60 years.

07:00They have not changed the turbines, they've not changed the blades, they've not changed

07:04any of the maintenance. They have changed the electronic control systems,

07:10but electronic control systems has moved on a lot since it was built in the 1960s.

07:15Yes. Obviously, whenever we talk about big energy projects, the two concerns that people have are,

07:22one, the impact on the natural environment, which we'll come back to in a second, but also

07:26is it going to result in cheaper bills? Because we hear a lot in the national press about,

07:31you know, we're still importing oil and gas from foreign countries, what happens if we get another

07:35energy shock like we did a couple of years ago? What assurance can you give that if we put a

07:40tidal lagoon here, we would actually see energy bills, if not coming sharply down, then at least

07:45not going up as quickly as we're expecting at the moment?

07:47We have compared our costs with both offshore wind, which is the main supplier, and we believe

07:57our energy costs would be significantly lower than offshore wind. We've also compared our

08:05costs with Hinkley Point. That's due to be something like a cost estimate of 40 billion.

08:15Our cost estimate is 20, sorry, 10 billion. And we would produce almost as much power,

08:25but it wouldn't be as though when you take in the fact that also that Hinkley will last 60 years,

08:32we would last 120 years. To us, there's no doubt that we, capital investment, etc,

08:41will be significantly lower per unit of cost of energy.

08:44Yeah. Let's move on to the natural and environmental aspects of this. Obviously,

08:49we're here at Blue Anchor at high tide. This is a part of the coast which has been hit

08:53very badly by erosion, as you can see from the, you might just be able to see the anchors drop

08:58site and the rock armour is just down below on the beach. We can't get down there at the moment.

09:04Would a lagoon help to safeguard this area of the coast from erosion? And if so, how?

09:11Because a lagoon has a wall out to sea and would protect the area, which you might never watch it,

09:18you would not get the large waves coming in and causing coastal erosion. You would only get the

09:25very small waves generated within the lagoon itself. Therefore, we expect that you would be

09:33able to rebuild the 3161 coast road without the risk of it then falling into the sea.

09:43I think the people who watch it would be delighted to hear that. And we know that the local MP,

09:48Rachel Gilmore, has been pushing for that as part of the lagoon bid, along with other ventures,

09:52of course. I suppose the other big obstacle that you face, because this area is rightly

09:57part of its heritage and its various cultural traditions, how do you overcome people's

10:04resistance to putting this major piece of infrastructure in front of what essentially

10:09were our series of traditional fishing villages? Right. The wall of the scheme would be

10:16made of concrete caissons. These are large concrete boxes. They would be cast in the

10:25ports of South Wales and Bristol. They would then be towed across and sunk in position.

10:31And therefore, the amount of construction in West Somerset would be very limited.

10:38It would provide some employment during construction, but it would not have the

10:44impact that those large schemes have had. OK. And let's talk about the benefits that this

10:52could bring. We've talked about energy prices. We've talked about the protection of this area,

10:57in particular, from erosion. But as Mrs Gilmore said quite recently, this is also about,

11:02even if it's not going to be an area with thousands of new construction jobs coming,

11:06this is about generating economic growth for the long term. Tell us how the barrier is going to

11:10help with that. It's not a barrier. It's a lagoon. Sorry. I've been writing so much about

11:15the Bridgewater Barrier. It's a second age. Tell us how the tidal lagoon is going to reinvigorate

11:20this area's economy. We believe that having a new marina at Minehead, which would be all

11:29tide floating, would bring quite a lot of new people to the area and also provide people who

11:38live here with somewhere to park their boats and sail it or motor it whenever they wanted to.

11:44So that will be one of the schemes. But we've also got a Community Benefit Trust so that the

11:51community can choose what it wants to use some funds to do. And we've got various other

12:00observation towers so people who come to Minehead can go up that and view along the coast.

12:07The lovely heritage coast that we have here and there would be other features

12:15in order to develop the community. That observation tower, would that be along the

12:18lines of the Sea Life Tower in Weymouth where it sort of rises up or would it be more of a fixed

12:23point? Okay. And in terms of those benefits, I mean, when people hear those, they naturally

12:29sound quite exciting. But is it a case of we have to build the lagoon first and then we'll do that

12:34as an afterthought or can you build them concurrently? We would really need to

12:42build the lagoon first and then you've got the facilities. For instance, you've got a lagoon wall

12:49in which to base your marina. So they wouldn't be add-ons, they would be built as part of the

12:56main scheme but done towards the end of construction. Excellent. And you've also

13:03mentioned about sort of protecting the wildlife and how the lagoon would benefit with that,

13:08particularly when it comes to the local bird populations. Could you elaborate on that a bit,

13:12please? Yes, we've taken advice from the Somerset Ornithological Society and they say that the

13:21water birds here are mostly passage migrants going up channel but we propose to put in two

13:29islands, refuge islands, just off the coast so that when the water birds get disturbed by

13:37dog walkers on the beach, they could go to the islands and they could probably nest on the

13:43islands. So we would expect the water bird population to go up as a result of the scheme.

13:50And one other quick environmental question before we start rounding things off.

13:54There's been a lot of talk about Hinkley's acoustic fish deterrent and whether that should

13:59be replaced with salt marshes. How are you going to stop fish getting into the turbines and being

14:04killed out of the caissons? First of all, we've taken advice from Électricité de France for their

14:11La Roche scheme in France. They say that no fish less than 0.8 of a metre have been affected by

14:20going through the turbines. We believe though that we need to go further than that so we would

14:26actually put on acoustic fish detection. That for us, that is not a problem because we've got a

14:32concrete wall right out where the turbines are. So you've got somewhere on which to mount the

14:41acoustic fish deterrent and I've talked to the company that provides them and yes, that would

14:47be straightforward. But we would also look to see whether there are more advanced turbines and

14:58there's some research going on of those. If those turn out to be better for fish protection,

15:04we would use those. Excellent. So just in terms of what happens next, obviously the government's

15:11going through a spending review at the moment. We're told that money is tight pretty much

15:14everywhere. How confident are you of getting funding for this project and would most of that

15:19have to come from the government rather than private enterprise? It could come from either

15:24government or private enterprise but private enterprise would not fund it unless there was

15:32government political support. So what's the next stage for you in terms of lobbying for that

15:38support? Obviously you've got the MP on side but in terms of actually getting the money down to start

15:42building, how confident are you? We've also lobbied the Environmental Audit Committee of the House of

15:50Commons and they have come out and said tidal should be an essential part of the government's

15:56policy and we are trying to arrange meetings with government ministers to take this forward.

16:06That's fantastic and just to round things off, obviously we've talked about the various benefits,

16:11we've talked about the challenges. As a Somerset guy born and bred, how much of a difference would

16:17this make to Somerset's identity both in terms of its energy and its sort of cultural

16:23identity as opposed to having this right on our doorstep? What would it mean to you personally

16:27if it saw the light of day? The lagoon would actually provide electricity for something like

16:352 million people, that's more than the population of Somerset. Its power is comparable to Hinkley Point.

16:43I believe the benefits that it would bring to the community of West Somerset are substantial

16:51and long-term. Chris Binney, thank you very much indeed for joining us and if you've missed any

16:56part of this live stream it will be available indefinitely on our Facebook page. There will

17:00also be articles that result from this and we will be keeping very close tabs on this project

17:04which on a personal level I think is very exciting. Thank you very much for everyone

17:08joining us from the West Somerset coast. This is Daniel Mumby, your local democracy reporter.

17:12Thank you once again to Chris Binney for joining us and I'll be back for another live stream

17:16very soon. Goodbye from us both.

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