Preston election candidate refuses to condemn 7th October attack on Israel

Lancashire Post

Michael Lavalette, standing as an independent in the Preston constituency, made the comments during a general election hustings debate staged by the Lancashire Post, Lancashire Lead and Blog Preston.  Six out of the ten people on the ballot on 4th July took part in the event:  DAVID BROOKS (Alliance for Democracy and Freedom) NEIL DARBY (Liberal Democrats) TREVOR HART (Conservative Party)  SIR MARK HENDRICK (Labour and Co-Operative Party) MICHAEL LAVALETTE (Independent) JOSEPH O’MEACHAIR (Rejoin EU)  The other four candidates sent their apologies.  They are:  YOUSUF BHAILOK (Independent)  JAMES ELLIOT (Reform UK) DEREK KILLEEN (UKIP) ISABELLA METCALF-RIENER (Green Party)

Transcript

00:00Our next topic this evening, which is Gaza, which was one of the most popular topics on all the

00:04questions that we had. So they did a lot of questions about the conflict and also the

00:08Hamas attack on Israel on the 7th of October. We're running a gallery of opinions on the subject,

00:13as you might imagine. So we have tried to come up with a bit of an amalgam of questions

00:18from all the different viewpoints that were submitted, and we'll put them to our panel now.

00:23And as I say, you will, of course, have the opportunity to ask some questions here at the

00:27end if you have any specifics that have gone unanswered. Now, several people have commented

00:32on the civilian loss of life in Gaza. One question is saying, too many innocent civilians have been

00:38killed. What would you do about this? And another specifically asking that they want this country

00:42to stop selling arms to Israel and asking, would you push for this in Parliament? So we can start

00:48with you, David, on this one. Innocent civilian life in Gaza and the toll of the current conflict.

00:54Well, yeah, again, I think our government is disgusting, dropping bombs on innocent kids,

00:59a war of attrition, turning water off and stopping the food supply to kids. It's just

01:04disgusting. And Keir Starmer supported that. We've also got many more issues going on. Nobody seems to

01:09be pushing for a ceasefire. People just seem to be pushing for war. They all have vested

01:15interest in the military industrial complex. And this is where we seem to be going. The mainstream

01:20parties just want war and suffering. So Shaf, on this particular one and the conflict in Gaza,

01:28from the Palestinian perspective, particularly. Do you want me to answer from the Palestinian

01:33perspective? Well, these questions are certainly coming in terms of talking about too many

01:37innocent civilians being killed in Gaza. We've got the questions, as I say, to answer.

01:42Any innocent civilian death is an appalling tragedy, wherever they live. When the key

01:49problems we're facing is that there's been a progressive breakdown in the international

01:53acceptance of a code of practice and a code of conduct that sovereign nations all accept.

02:00The ability for sovereign nations to accept independent arbitration is at the key

02:07of what's going on here, because there isn't that acceptance anymore. Everything that leads to

02:13the diminution of the ability of the world international order to take control and to

02:19end conflicts like this is causing, and will cause not just in Gaza, but in other conflicts

02:24coming down the line, increasing problems for all of us.

02:33Of course, we are all appalled by the tragic loss of life throughout the entire Middle Eastern region.

02:40What happened on October 7th, and subsequently, must be deplored.

02:45Neil, if I could bring you particularly to the question that was asked regarding the sale of

02:49arms to Israel, is that something you would push to end in parliament?

02:54I mean, if we don't deal with the crisis at all, all that's going to happen is we're going to

02:58repeat this tragedy time and time again. We need an international solution. We need countries to

03:05come together from around the world to try and bring about an immediate bilateral ceasefire,

03:11and it's important we focus on it being bilateral. We need to have the two-state solution based on

03:16the 1967 borders, but we need to call out Israel, which does mean we need to question whether or not

03:24we want to continue to act the way that we have done, but it is also important that we look on

03:28the other side of the conflict, and we also need to make sure that any peace is going to remove

03:32Hamas from the equation as well, because otherwise there is not going to be any peace.

03:37We need to be able to call out on both sides, and that would be where I stand on that.

03:44Michael, from your perspective, the impact of the conflict in Gaza on the civilian population?

03:49To answer the question, an absolute ceasefire now, an end to arms sales to Israel as a beginning,

03:56but for the bigger question, what is the solution to the question in Palestine? Well, we have to

04:02realize that it didn't start on the 7th of October. There's a 76-year history of hurt

04:07in the state of Palestine, and so the solution is one where, from the River Jordan to the

04:12Mediterranean, there is a society where it is based on one person, one vote of equality. There

04:17is no ethno-nationalist state, and that those who have been expelled from their land for 76 years

04:23and live in refugee camps, some of them for 76 years in refugee camps, have the right that every

04:28refugee around the world has, which is the right to return to their home. So a right of return for

04:32the refugees, an end to apartheid in Israel, one person, one vote between the River Jordan

04:37and the Mediterranean, an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and stop selling arms to Israel.

04:51Well, the conflict, I wouldn't call it a conflict, I'd call it a war, because effectively

04:56Israel has effectively declared a full-scale war now on the people of Palestine. I first went to

05:03Palestine in 2002. I met with Yasser Arafat when the man was still alive. I met with Abu Mars,

05:09who is still the president of Fatah. I've been to Palestine several times over the years,

05:14and I've also been to Gaza, and I've seen Gaza from the inside, and it's terrible what's being

05:20done, it's inhumane. I've also been to South Africa, not long after apartheid, and the way

05:25that Palestinians are being treated by Israelis, both in the West Bank and in Gaza, is worse than

05:32what the South Africans did to the blacks in South Africa. When I mentioned that to Israeli politicians,

05:39they've been disgusted with the comments that I've made. Now it seems that many people, probably some

05:45of you not even alive looking around the room, but when I was first elected 24 years ago,

05:50I've been with this subject for a very long time. I've always taken a balanced view and said, a bit

05:55like Neil, that we need to go back to those 67 borders, because that was what was agreed

06:00originally, but was never fully signed into a proper treaty after Oslo. So that's where we

06:07need to be, and I'm fully behind the Palestinians in the way that they're trying to get self-determination

06:13and international recognition. Mark, thank you, I'll try to just find the CEO on this one.

06:18Yes, equally, when you see what is taking place, you can't fail but to be horrified. The loss of

06:25life that we're seeing across our televisions, day in day out, it is horrendous. The war has to stop,

06:32so for that there needs to be a ceasefire, and there needs to be a ceasefire now.

06:37The hostages need to be released, and they need to be released on all sides, there shouldn't be any

06:41question, hostages taken is wrong. They need to get aid in there, because there are people suffering

06:49day in day out, and that has got to be a priority, to get it in, and get it into the people that

06:55need it and need it now. We need to rebuild. People have got nowhere to live now, just look at

07:02what the place is like, it's horrendous. So there has to be a rebuilding package that supports what

07:08takes place. And then there has to be work towards lasting peace, and there needs to be a solution,

07:16a two-state solution perhaps, but there needs to be the treaty that is agreed by all for the good

07:23of all of the people. Some very specific questions on this, and a couple of them hopefully we can

07:28rattle through in virtually one word or one sentence answers, so we can stay with you

07:32Trevor for the next one. This one is indeed very specific, do you all denounce Hamas as a terrorist

07:38organisation, regardless of your views on the current Israeli actions in Gaza? Straight answer, yes.

07:44Mark Hendry? Yes. Michael Aboulazak? No.

07:54Because they, because I don't consider, I think when your land is occupied, and it has been for

08:0076 years, people have the right to resist. You have the right to resist in the second world war,

08:04the French resistance, the Yugoslav resistance, the Italian resistance, the Greek resistance,

08:08and the Palestinians have the right to fight against their own dispossession. Rape is not resistance.

08:16And just to answer that, so all the shouts about it has now been disproven, so it's not even true

08:21and accurate what the person's shouting from the floor. In the vein that you were talking about,

08:26about the, about Hamas and its status, as you see, do you condemn their actions on the 7th of October?

08:34If you don't denounce Hamas as a terrorist organisation, do you denounce the 7th of October?

08:40Sorry Michael, go ahead. So history didn't start on the 7th of October.

08:45On the 6th of October, there was attacks on Sheikh Jarrah. On March last year, there was a,

08:51there was an attack on Hawara, which is on the main road between Nablus and Tol Karim,

08:57and there was people bombed out of their homes. History didn't start on the 7th of October,

09:01there's a context to all of this. So that's a no. So that's a no. You don't denounce the 7th of October.

09:10Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organisation and they've been terrorising the Palestinian people

09:15as much as everybody else for years, and we need to recognise that.

09:18We can have no track with them, full stop.

09:24Absolutely, you need to denounce Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

09:27You're right in that the war, it didn't start on the 7th of October. There have been

09:32issues in the Middle East going back far longer than most of us here have been alive,

09:36but to not denounce an outright terrorist attack, I'm sorry, that is unacceptable.

09:42Absolutely unacceptable.

09:44David, your opinion on this, do you denounce Hamas as a terrorist organisation, is the question?

09:49I find it difficult to denounce Hamas, seeing as Israel set Hamas up.

10:01I find it hard to support Israel when they've supplied Argentina with bombs in the Falklands

10:06War that killed British people. I'm not prescribing and I'm not saying yes or no in support.

10:16I'm indifferent because it's not what it's portrayed to be.

10:20In fairness, as Michael said, he didn't denounce Hamas as a terrorist organisation,

10:23and I have to ask the same question to you. Do you denounce the 7th of October attack in Israel?

10:27Any innocent children dying is disgusting and abhorrent.

10:32So that's a yes.

10:32We don't know the full details yet. I'm not prepared to disclose

10:38what my feelings are when the true nature of the events have not been told.

10:59The official opposition is the Labour Party, not the SNP.

11:02We put forward our own motion which talked about cessation of hostilities.

11:06I voted for cessation of hostilities because it was our motion.

11:10The wording of the SNP one was different.

11:22The point I'm making is that we're not there to support the SNP.

11:25We're the official opposition. We make forward the motion for the opposition.

11:29They can do what they want. We don't see them as part of our opposition to fight the government.

11:36The Tories are the opposition, as far as I'm concerned, not the SNP.

11:42Point taken, but what was the distinction, as you saw it then, between the SNP and the Labour Party?

11:46The nuance in the wording, but you know...

11:48It upset a lot of people, though, didn't it?

11:50Well, it upset some of them who only talk about the SNP.

11:52Not many people said it today, but not many people say that this was an SNP motion.

11:57Talk as if it's the motion, and it wasn't the motion.

12:02It wasn't the motion.

12:04It was a motion. There was no Labour motion at that time.

12:06It was a Labour motion, but that doesn't get talked about.

12:13You've got your own proper campus approach.

12:15We've got to keep it so that everybody's able to understand the panel

12:18and we will open it up to the floor at the end.

12:20If you've got specific questions, by all means, then certainly come in.

12:24One more specific one here to Michael Avalet.

12:28I'm asking you specifically, Michael, that this particular question of beliefs,

12:32you're the person responsible for organising children marching for a ceasefire in Preston.

12:38Since the October 7th attack on Israel, two members of the Jewish community,

12:42this questioner says, were approached by children in schools whilst volunteering.

12:45One was told they had nothing to do with Jews.

12:48The other was told Jews are evil, and the question basically is,

12:51do you think your pro-Palestinian campaigning

12:54is having more of an effect on Jews in the UK and here in Preston

12:57than on the Middle East peace process?

13:00No, not at all.

13:02I've been on 15 national demonstrations.

13:04I've organised the coaches to 15 national demonstrations since October,

13:08and in each of those demonstrations there is a very large and very vibrant Jewish block.

13:13I've been on lots of demonstrations throughout my life,

13:16and the demonstrations since October have been about the most dreadful events,

13:22but they've been some of the most family-friendly events that I've been at.

13:25They're not at all as they've been portrayed,

13:28and the children's march that I organised through Preston,

13:30I think was a wonderful celebration of children looking at pictures

13:34of what was happening to children their age in Gaza,

13:36and wanting to express their opinion about it,

13:38so I don't see any problem at all with that.

13:40But if you could do anything about the situation,

13:42it's all about what the questioner says,

13:45and that kind of hostility towards Jews in Israel.

13:46So I have no evidence at all of that.

13:50I haven't seen that.

13:52I don't want any forms of racism or anti-Semitism to take place,

13:56but my experience on all those demonstrations is I have not come across any anti-Semitism.

14:01There is a hostility towards the Zionist project,

14:05but there is no hostility towards Jews.

14:06There is no anti-Semitism.

14:08I want to say thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to you.

14:13Has anybody got anything else that they'd like to say before we move on here?

14:16Thank you.

14:18I think regardless of what is happening in the Middle East,

14:20we need to be aware and conscious of the fact that both Islamophobia

14:25and anti-Semitism has gone through the roof in this country since last year.

14:30And first and foremost, we are here to be the MP for Preston.

14:34And yes, we will have, as an MP, a responsibility to what the UK does abroad.

14:41But our primary responsibility has got to be looking after our own citizens,

14:44our own residents here in Preston.

14:47And we have to be very careful about what we do and say,

14:50and make sure that we're not stirring up hate against each other,

14:53regardless of race, regardless of religion, regardless of anything at all.

14:56We are all equal as citizens here.

15:03If our government stopped interfering in other international countries,

15:07in other international countries,

15:09stopped putting the two pence worth in and causing these wars and exacerbating them.

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