- 20/11/2023
Patrick Roberts' new deal, Dan Ballard injury woes and Plymouth vs Sunderland
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00:37 Hello everybody, welcome to the RAW podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:43 James and Joe here today.
00:46 We are smack bang in the middle of an international break before Sunderland play Plymouth on Saturday.
00:52 But there's still been some talking points that have cropped up.
00:55 The main talking point last week, Joe, was that Patrick Roberts has signed a new contract at the club until 2026,
01:01 option for another year as well.
01:04 Of all the sort of ongoing sagas at Sunderland, if you want to call them that,
01:08 Patrick Roberts was the sort of the most urgent, perhaps next to Jack Clark and what's going to happen with him in January.
01:16 But really pleasing from a fan's point of view to get that done.
01:20 Yeah, it was a good piece of business from Sunderland to get that done.
01:24 As you say, that was probably the most pressing one of all the players that were out of contracts coming into the summer.
01:30 We knew that Roberts had been in talks with Sunderland.
01:33 We knew obviously as well that that bid had come in from Southampton on transfer deadline day,
01:37 or the final few days of the transfer window.
01:40 So there was interest from elsewhere with clubs obviously aware that Roberts was into the final 12 months of his contract.
01:46 So it was important to get that one done.
01:48 He remains a key player to this Sunderland side.
01:52 I think he started like the last eight games after he's come back from a hamstring injury.
01:56 And although he's still waiting for that first goal this season,
01:59 he does remain a very important player in this Sunderland side with him on one side and Jack Clark on the other side.
02:05 And Sunderland in recent transfer windows or in recent years have been very good at tying kind of key players down to long term contracts.
02:14 We've seen that as well over the last few months with people like Anthony Patterson, Dennis Sirkin, Tri Hume,
02:20 a lot of them signing longer term deals.
02:22 So good to get Roberts tied down as well.
02:25 And as you say, three years until 2026 with that extra year option.
02:31 Still fairly young as well, 26 years old coming into his prime, but he's been around for a long time.
02:36 Patrick Roberts burst on the scene around 2014 with Fulham,
02:40 obviously went to Manchester City, Celtic, then he sort of lost his way a little bit and was at Girona and La Liga,
02:46 Norwich City, Middlesbrough, Derby. He went to France for a bit.
02:49 He's really found a home at Sunderland Joe and it's been his most productive stint really,
02:55 other than his Celtic job about a decade ago now that is really.
03:01 But it's telling, isn't it, that he's sort of decided to commit his future to Sunderland in terms of,
03:08 you know, how much he enjoys it here, how much of an attractive proposition the club are,
03:12 how good they are with these types of plays.
03:14 You know, Hibbidd Mobraie, by all accounts, you know, very close.
03:18 Mobraie thinks the world of him.
03:21 I guess it's symbolic as well that players of Patrick Roberts' talent really find a home at Sunderland,
03:27 where perhaps, you know, at previous clubs and previous plays as well, they've gone awry a little bit.
03:33 But Sunderland now seems like a really good destination for these players.
03:37 I think that's the thing, isn't it?
03:38 You've mentioned a lot of the clubs there that he's been at and he's not really played.
03:42 When he's been out on loan, he obviously had that big move to Manchester City early in his career
03:47 and then he's been loaned out and had a few injuries as well and not really got that run of games.
03:51 Whereas now at Sunderland last season and this season, he is a regular starter in this team.
03:58 Tony Mobraie really likes him, speaks very highly of him.
04:01 Roberts speaks very highly of Tony Mobraie and Mobraie is a manager that,
04:05 speaking to Dan Neal a few weeks ago, that he encourages the attacking players to express themselves,
04:10 to get on the ball and to do what they are good at.
04:13 And Roberts has clearly been allowed to do that in this Sunderland side.
04:17 Clearly, he will admit as well that he does need to add some end product to his game this season
04:22 because he is still waiting that first goal.
04:23 You look at what Jack Clarke's done on the other side, he's already on nine championship goals.
04:28 I know a few of them have been penalties, but he has won a lot of those penalties.
04:33 Roberts is still waiting for that first goal and he knows that he's still yet to get on the score sheet
04:38 and he will want to put that right in the next few weeks.
04:41 But as you say, he's now at a club where he is playing regularly,
04:45 at a club in front of 40,000 fans, at the Stadium of Light when Sunderland are at home.
04:51 And he's really enjoying his time here and I think that's one of the main reasons why he signed the contract.
04:58 There was interest from elsewhere, Southampton the most obvious one,
05:01 but he's at a club now where he is playing regularly.
05:04 He can get his head down, he's enjoying his football, he's playing under a manager that trusts him,
05:08 that likes him and they were big factors in him deciding to sign the new contract.
05:13 Absolutely. And from Sunderland's perspective as well, Joe, a bit of a show of intent,
05:20 a bit of flexing of the muscles as well because there was interest from Southampton
05:24 that turned bids down in the Semi, we know that.
05:27 But there has been talk from Sunderland fans and a little bit of criticism here and there
05:32 in terms of what are Sunderland going to be in the Championship?
05:35 Are they going to be a selling club that shift lots of the best players on like Ross Stewart?
05:39 Obviously, there's mitigating circumstances there.
05:42 But how are Sunderland going to approach the Championship?
05:44 Are they going to be passive or are they going to try and keep hold of the best players and get promotion?
05:50 And judging by how this Robert situation has developed,
05:54 Sunderland want to keep hold of many of the top stars unless crazy money comes in.
05:59 And they also want to protect themselves in terms of long contracts
06:02 and reward the players for good performances as well.
06:05 So that's a positive.
06:07 But yeah, do you think it positions Sunderland slightly differently in the Championship now?
06:11 It's a bit of a sort of a statement from the hierarchy.
06:17 Well, the thing is with giving out long contracts, the players that they're giving contracts to
06:21 are young enough to also progress in their fee kind of increase as well.
06:25 I mean, Roberts is 26, but it was incredible that the Birmingham game last time Sunderland played,
06:31 he was the oldest player in Sunderland starting 11 at 26 with 09 out suspended.
06:35 And it just shows the kind of talent that Sunderland have got that in theory should only get better
06:40 because they are a young age at the start of their careers.
06:44 So if that happens, then you would think they're only going to increase in value.
06:49 So it's kind of lower risk giving these players longer contracts because they are going to improve.
06:57 And Roberts at 26 would hope his best years are still ahead of him.
07:01 He obviously, as you say, came on quite early at Man City when he kind of broke through
07:07 and then had those kind of challenging few years when he was going out on loan.
07:11 But still, you would think that his best years are still ahead of him from what he's shown in the last few years at Sunderland.
07:17 If he can add that end product, then he could be a really, really big asset for Sunderland as he already is.
07:23 But you think if he can add those goals and assists, he could be even more of an asset for them.
07:28 You take a lot of time, Joe, looking at the contract statuses of Sunderland players,
07:33 how long they've got left to run, all of that sort of stuff.
07:36 Who do you think should be next? There was a glut in the summer, obviously, with Dennis Sogan.
07:40 Patrick Roberts has signed now, but there's been a few recently, try Hulme Springs to mind.
07:46 But who is the next? Because there's always one, isn't there?
07:49 Who is the next sort of contract that Sunderland fans should be worrying about, maybe?
07:52 Well, looking at the players out of contract this summer now, you've got Alex Pritchard,
07:57 who Mo Bray even admitted in the summer that he probably expected him to leave in the summer.
08:02 I think he'll probably go in January, you know.
08:05 Yeah, well, that's a possibility, isn't it? With his contract up next summer.
08:09 He's not a regular in the first team now, although he has made quite a few appearances.
08:13 I think he's only made four starts out of 16 games for Sunderland in the league this season.
08:18 So he's a player that, you know, there's doubts whether he'd get offered a new contract.
08:24 Then you've got Bradley Dack, who's signed a one-year contract, but with a club option of another year.
08:30 I suppose that probably depends on how much he plays, how much he proves his fitness,
08:34 because he has had fitness issues. So he's had the two ACL injuries at Blackburn,
08:38 and then this season he's had a few issues as well.
08:42 Then you've got Corey Evans, who's coming back from a long-term ACL injury.
08:46 So we still don't know what kind of condition he's going to come back in in his 33.
08:51 And Ellis Taylor is the other one who has just kind of struggled to break into that first team set-up, really.
08:57 He's still playing for the under-21s. He's 20 years old now.
09:00 So they're kind of the four that are out of contract this summer.
09:04 And as we mentioned before, a lot of the younger players, Sunderland's key assets,
09:08 they have been able to tie down to longer-term deals. Looking further ahead to the summer of 2025,
09:13 you've got Adil Ise, Chris Rigg and Niall Huggins.
09:17 So there may be, in the coming months, their situations that Sunderland will look at.
09:22 Huggins has been playing very well this season. He started the last 11 games in the Championship,
09:27 earned a call-up for Wales. So now that he's proving his fitness,
09:30 that might be a situation that Sunderland will look at and perhaps offer him new terms.
09:34 Now that he is proving his fitness after two years of constant injury setbacks,
09:39 Ise is coming back to fitness kind of in the next few weeks, hopefully,
09:43 but will take a bit of time to get up to speed.
09:46 But they've got over a year left on their contract, so there is a bit more time there.
09:50 But what Sunderland, as we've said, have done very well.
09:52 They've tied a lot of their key players down to longer-term deals.
09:56 And in theory, they should increase in value.
10:01 Indeed. And I guess there's no rush with Jack Clark because it's 2027 his contract runs out, isn't it?
10:07 But is that one you'd be wanting to sort of get sorted and get looked at again,
10:13 just given the transfer interest? As I say, there's no sort of massive blind panic
10:17 because he has got a significant amount of time left on his contract.
10:22 But I remember we sort of said that about Stewart in the beginning,
10:25 and then it all started to unravel. And Sunderland ultimately had to sell.
10:29 And perhaps, you know, with Jack Clark, it will be impossible not to sell at some point
10:34 because he's so good, unless he can progress at the same rate as Sunderland, which we don't know.
10:39 But that's perhaps one as well, Joe, that Sunderland will be talking to Clark about.
10:44 Yeah, I think it's 2026 Clark's contract, so a few more years left on the deal.
10:50 It's interesting because Ross Stewart was kind of the first kind of high-profile player
10:55 that Sunderland ended up selling. He was obviously just coming into the final year of his contract,
11:01 and he was the first one. But Sunderland had already played kind of the majority of last season
11:05 without Stewart anyway. So they'd kind of already adapted to playing without that centre forward
11:11 to lead the line as good as Stewart was last season when he did play.
11:15 They'd almost kind of got used to playing without him.
11:18 So that almost kind of seemed like they weren't losing a kind of as key a player in their side.
11:23 And obviously Clark, if they were to lose him, would be a big loss.
11:27 We've heard kind of from Mowbray and from other people that Clark is settled at Sunderland.
11:32 He's not been pushing for a move away, even when those offers were coming in in the summer.
11:38 But obviously the prospect of playing in the Premier League, if he gets a whole season
11:41 under his belt in the Championship, playing this well, or even if offers come in in January,
11:46 of course, it could be tempting for Sunderland if the right bid comes in,
11:50 if an extortionate offer comes in for Jack Clark. Are they going to accept it?
11:56 But as you say, they are in a strong position with these contracts running until 2026.
12:01 I think it's clear that at 22, Clark kind of is on that upward trajectory again to reach the Premier League,
12:08 even though he's had that move to Tottenham and that didn't work out.
12:11 The way he's playing and the age he is, you would expect him to get another chance in the Premier League.
12:15 But how soon will that be? Could it be with Sunderland if they got promoted?
12:20 Or will it be with someone else if they come in with a really good offer and he feels that's a good place
12:25 where he can play football regularly? But like Roberts, he's at a club where he is playing regularly.
12:30 He's one of the key players and he's had his move early to a Premier League club.
12:36 It didn't work out. And now he's playing week in, week out for a manager that really likes him,
12:40 for a team that really suits his style and can really get the best out of his attributes.
12:44 So he's got to obviously weigh all these things up. But I'm sure there'll be interest in January
12:49 and then in the summer, particularly if Sunderland don't get promoted.
12:53 Yes, the next topic of conversation is a rather frustrating one.
12:58 Dan Ballard has an injury doubt for today's Euro 2024 qualifier against Denmark and Belfast
13:05 for the Northern Ireland international team. Manager Michael O'Neill revealed in his press conference
13:11 that the centre-back was struggling with another hamstring injury and that he would need to be assessed this morning.
13:17 We don't yet have any news on the condition of Ballard, whether he'll play today or not or be left out.
13:25 But as Sunderland fans have been quick to notice on social media jokes, I think it's the second time in a row this has happened.
13:31 Third time, perhaps, in recent memory. Obviously, Dan Ballard missed Sunderland's last game against Birmingham City,
13:38 which was a 3-1 win with Silton Triantis coming in. But there's no doubt that the former Arsenal man is Sunderland's best defender.
13:45 And any sort of injury question over him is a massive worry for Tony Mowbray.
13:52 Yes, as you say, it's not the first time that he's been injured when he's been away playing for Northern Ireland.
13:56 It seems every international break he seems to pick up a knock or a hamstring injury or something.
14:01 So hopefully it's not too serious because he is, as you say, a key player for Sunderland.
14:06 Obviously, he did miss the last game, him and O'Neill and Silton Triantis came in and kind of grew into the game.
14:12 I thought they were a bit shaky early on, but grew into the game.
14:16 Obviously, Dan Ballard is a huge loss for Sunderland. I think he's one of the players that is kind of the most important.
14:22 If you lost him for a kind of extended period of time, it's going to have a big impact on the team.
14:28 I'd probably put the other players in that bracket. I'd probably put Dan Neal and Jack Clark in there.
14:33 If you lost them for an extended period of time, I think Sunderland could be in trouble and you could possibly put Ballard into that category
14:41 because of the level that he is and the kind of level to the next player that would have to come in and take his place.
14:48 So hopefully it's not too serious. I think he's been very good this season.
14:53 He's even been able to pose a threat in the opposition's box by scoring two goals.
14:58 That's something that Sunderland have been working on to try and be more effective from set pieces.
15:04 At both ends, Ballard's presence in the air, arily, to defend set pieces, which we've seen Sunderland have struggled with over the past couple of seasons,
15:13 particularly towards the end of last season where they had those injuries when Ballard was out, when Danny Bart was out.
15:19 He does provide a real asset in both boxes and obviously would be a big loss if he is ruled out.
15:26 There is cause for optimism, though, although we don't know the full extent of the problem.
15:32 But the last time this did happen was during September's international break.
15:35 So Sunderland beat Southampton 5-0 before the international break on the 2nd of September.
15:40 Everybody went off to their countries.
15:43 Michael O'Neill then confirmed, I think around September 4th, that Dan Ballard was struggling.
15:49 But then he did actually play 90 minutes in Sunderland's next game after the international break, which was the 3-1 win at QPR at Loftus Road.
15:57 So he's not definitely out yet, but it is concerning.
16:04 We'll move on to the Plymouth game on Saturday.
16:07 Joe, you mentioned the centre-back pairing there, but if Ballard is fit, you'd expect 0-9 to come back in.
16:15 You talked a little bit about Silton and Treant, as impressive as they were, you do get the impression that,
16:22 well, not even the impression, but it's just obvious to see, isn't it, that Ballard and 0-9 are probably Sunderland's best centre-back pair.
16:29 I think the stats suggested as well that 0-9's absence was felt in terms of him stepping out of defence, progressive passes, all of that sort of stuff.
16:39 So, yeah, you would expect them to come back in if Ballard's fit.
16:43 And I guess other areas of the pitch, Roosan probably starting up front, I doubt there's going to be too many surprises.
16:49 I'd guess Huggins and Hulme would start on the flanks again.
16:52 We don't know the extent of Dennis Erkin's injury yet either.
16:56 But yeah, business as usual, you'd think, Joe, wouldn't you?
17:00 Yeah, I'd definitely expect 0-9 and Ballard to come back in, assuming Ballard is fit.
17:06 We obviously don't know about that.
17:08 I think Seal is slightly ahead of Triantis in terms of if Ballard isn't fit.
17:13 You've just seen from him coming off the bench a few more times and playing a bit more than Triantis.
17:19 Triantis has been playing a lot for the under-21 side.
17:22 So that's at centre-back. Further forward, as you say, I'd expect Roosan to keep his place up front.
17:29 We don't know the injury, the extent of the injury, of Dennis Erkin's injury, but Niall Huggins has been playing very well this season.
17:35 He's started the last 11 games, so no real concern to rush Sirkin into that position if he's not ready.
17:43 As you say, we don't know the extent of that, whether he's going to be ruled out.
17:46 And I think the other position is kind of that number 10 position.
17:49 I think Bellingham, Mo Bray's been hinting for a few weeks that he'd like to give Bellingham a rest.
17:54 He's started every championship fixture this season, still only 18 as well.
18:00 And he pulled out of the England under-19 squad.
18:03 Not quite sure why that was, whether that was a knock or just that he needs a rest,
18:08 because he's played so much football this season, more football than he played in the entirety of last season.
18:13 And I think Adil Shish, his kind of cameo off the bench against Birmingham was quite impressive
18:18 and kind of showed that he's pushing for a start maybe.
18:21 So perhaps he could come into that number 10 position, start his first league game for Sunderland.
18:27 So that's kind of the area where there's probably a bit of a dilemma for Mo Bray.
18:30 Does he keep Bellingham in or does he bring in Adil Shish?
18:34 Apart from that, I'd expect kind of a similar side to the one which played against Birmingham last time out.
18:41 Yeah, absolutely. Sunderland currently sixth in the championship, 16 games played, 26 to travel to home park to face Plymouth Argyll.
18:49 Newly promoted Plymouth Argyll, who are 19th on 16 points, 10 points between the sides.
18:54 But Joe, it's a cliche in football, isn't it?
18:58 But with it being such a long trip, with it being a game that Sunderland fans will rightly expect to win,
19:05 although I don't think that's arrogance, it's just the form and the league positions would suggest that.
19:12 That's saying if Sunderland are a bit complacent, it's one of those where it could be a little bit of a banana skin
19:18 because I actually think Plymouth play some decent football at times.
19:21 They've got some good players, obviously on a bit of a roll coming up from last season.
19:25 They've competed fairly well in the championship. Fast forward to this campaign.
19:30 I just worry that it could be one of those that we think Sunderland could do well in,
19:35 but perhaps it's one that comes back to bite us. I hope I'm wrong on that.
19:39 Yeah, they've kind of gone for it, haven't they, since they've come up?
19:42 From what I've seen from their results, they seem to score quite a lot of goals.
19:46 Just looking at the league table now, they've scored 27 goals in 16 games,
19:50 although I was reading earlier that their two strikers, Ryan Harding and Mustafa Bundu, have missed their last two games.
19:56 So they've had a couple of issues there, whether they'll be back for the Sunderland game.
20:01 It's a sellout crowd as well at Home Park, it's set to be.
20:04 They'll be well up for the game, especially if Ballard isn't fit.
20:09 Sunderland could have a problem there with Plymouth trying to go for it.
20:14 It's a quick turnaround as well. There's quite a lot of games coming up after the international break.
20:19 Sunderland are home to Huddersfield in the midweek after the Plymouth game,
20:23 then they've got a trip to Millwall.
20:25 So the game's coming thick and fast straight after the break.
20:28 As we mentioned before, I think Sunderland starting XI, if you put it all together, looks pretty strong.
20:34 But with a couple of injuries, particularly some of the players I mentioned earlier,
20:38 a Clark or a Neal or a Ballard, if one of them gets injured and is out for a sustained period of time,
20:44 gaps could start to appear in the squad.
20:47 Sunderland have got to manage this run quite carefully,
20:51 building up to the festive fixtures as well, where there's going to be a lot of games.
20:56 The squad could really be stretched and Mowbray will have to work out when he can use certain players.
21:02 We've mentioned already about Bellingham's played every game this season.
21:05 There's going to have to be a time where he's going to have to come out of the squad.
21:09 But then you've got options in that number 10 position to bring players in.
21:13 But then further back in midfield with Ecuador and Neal, maybe there's a lack of depth there in the centre midfield.
21:19 Well, just quickly, Joe, just on Kevin Caden's point on Facebook, he says,
21:23 'Rest Ecuador, I think he played his worst game in a Sunderland shirt against Birmingham City.'
21:27 But it's then who do you bring in?
21:30 So that Ecuador's role, obviously you've got players that can play in centre midfield,
21:34 but is there another player in Sunderland's squad that could really do what Ecuador does?
21:37 Because Pritchard's not that type of player.
21:39 Dan Neal can do it, but then Dan Neal's better when Ecuador's next to him.
21:43 So it's a conundrum, isn't it, that one?
21:45 Well, I think we saw that as well in the Middlesbrough game.
21:48 Although Sunderland were down to 10 men, they'd lost Ecuador and Neal got the red card.
21:54 That kind of showed a real lack of depth in midfield.
21:56 And Bellingham's dropped back there.
21:58 But then you think Bellingham potentially needs a rest because he's played every game this season.
22:02 So that's, I think, the main area where Sunderland do lack a bit of depth.
22:06 I think Jai Matete would have got a few games if he'd been fit,
22:10 but we're not expecting him to be back.
22:12 I think he's close to returning to training,
22:14 but then it's probably going to take a while for him to be ready to start games
22:18 and kind of make an impact for the first team because he's had such a long injury.
22:22 So it's probably an area that Sunderland need to strengthen in January,
22:25 but they've got quite a lot of games before then.
22:27 So, yeah, hopefully Neal and Ecuador can kind of stay fit, really.
22:32 And I mean, I agree with the comment.
22:34 He's had his best game against Birmingham. I think that was quite clear.
22:37 But it does just show what a kind of key player he has become
22:41 that Sunderland are quite reliant on him now.
22:44 Yes, absolutely. So it is Plymouth at Home Park next up for Sunderland on Saturday.
22:48 We will have full coverage of that game and Tony Mowbray's press conference.
22:53 Joe, will there be a pre-Plymouth podcast looking at them?
22:57 Yeah, we'll try and get a pre-Plymouth podcast later this week, probably Friday.
23:02 But we'll try and get that sorted.
23:04 Happy day as well. You can keep across of all the build up to the Plymouth game
23:07 over at the Sunderland Echo website.
23:09 Make sure to check our social media channels as well.
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23:24 Once again, thank you very much for listening.
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